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Old Yesterday, 04:43 PM
 
196 posts, read 89,324 times
Reputation: 747

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Napolitano and many others are ignorant of embryology.

By conception, they are referring to fertilization, when the sperm and the egg form a one-celled zygote.

What they fail to understand, among other facts, is that conception/fertilization is not a single, punctual event. It is a process that takes around twenty-four hours. Let me rephrase: fertilization is a dynamic process that takes twenty-four hours. What microsecond does the developing entity transition from "non-person" to "person"? What about the second before, or after?

Napolitano's flawed approach known as punctualism. It doesn't fit the embryological development model. The correct approach is known as "gradualism." Napolitano has a fine legal mind, but his opinion on embryological issues is amateurish.

Finally, the concept of "personhood") is a philosophical and legal concept. To summarize, the correct approach combines embryological fact and philosophical considerations: science and philosophy.
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Old Yesterday, 06:04 PM
 
1,261 posts, read 1,022,675 times
Reputation: 826
Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post
Thanks for not mentioning abortion


So, your definition would be completely subjective-- that is, it's completely up to the feelings of the mother with no way for an observer to corroborate it.


Does that mean a 21 y/o who was the product of an unwanted pregnancy and abandoned by his mother should be denied voting privileges having not achieved "personhood" as you've defined it?


I understand what you're saying, and actually agree with you, but that line of thinking clearly doesn't clarify the answer to the question.
That is why you leave the decision top have the child to that mother and family.

If a person is not touched while they are a child they die. If they are not socialized between the ages of 2 to 7 then they will never be socialized, and would be a burden on society.

It's important that the child be wanted.

What other criteria could possibly be more important in order to have a better society?
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Old Yesterday, 06:28 PM
 
Location: Southwest Washington State
19,558 posts, read 12,895,296 times
Reputation: 25735
In all honesty, I think if the conceptus is alive, it is human.

But do not assume anything about my position on abortion from that.
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Old Yesterday, 06:28 PM
 
13,504 posts, read 14,133,703 times
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A subjective question that will never be answered by fact. I believe it becomes a person when itís born.
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Old Yesterday, 06:37 PM
 
7,323 posts, read 2,864,125 times
Reputation: 19492
Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieSkoon View Post
My right leaning peers like to call me a leftycuck over this, but I do not consider a human being to be alive until born, AKA, externally expunged form the mother at a natural time to do so.

I consider them more akin to a parasite before then.
Well, parasites ARE alive. Do you think parasites are dead just because they get their nutrition from a host?

And so are fetuses. They are very, very much alive and they move around and make facial expressions.
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Old Yesterday, 06:40 PM
 
7,323 posts, read 2,864,125 times
Reputation: 19492
Quote:
Originally Posted by silibran View Post
In all honesty, I think if the conceptus is alive, it is human.

But do not assume anything about my position on abortion from that.
I agree. An embryo is alive, and in my opinion, a human being.

The fact that it lives within a uterus instead of out, doesn't make any less an alive human being.

The reason we're NOT willing to say that, the obvious, is because we then have to decide whether it's ok to kill a living human being through abortion, and for many, it's just easier to say well no, that's not actually alive.

Back millennials ago, there was the saying "the quick and the dead". The alive and the dead. And "quick" was determined as when the mother could feel kicking. So at about 15 weeks gestation.

Which has no bearing on my view of abortion, either. I'm just willing to stare it in the face and say yes, it is a living human being. And yes, the mother has choice of whether to host the baby, up to, say 12 weeks gestation.
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Old Yesterday, 06:45 PM
 
7,323 posts, read 2,864,125 times
Reputation: 19492
Quote:
Originally Posted by townshend View Post
Napolitano and many others are ignorant of embryology.

By conception, they are referring to fertilization, when the sperm and the egg form a one-celled zygote.

What they fail to understand, among other facts, is that conception/fertilization is not a single, punctual event. It is a process that takes around twenty-four hours. Let me rephrase: fertilization is a dynamic process that takes twenty-four hours. What microsecond does the developing entity transition from "non-person" to "person"? What about the second before, or after?

Napolitano's flawed approach known as punctualism. It doesn't fit the embryological development model. The correct approach is known as "gradualism." Napolitano has a fine legal mind, but his opinion on embryological issues is amateurish.

Finally, the concept of "personhood") is a philosophical and legal concept. To summarize, the correct approach combines embryological fact and philosophical considerations: science and philosophy.
The fact that we, on the outside of the mother's body can't usually pinpoint when the fertilization occurred doesn't change the fact that it does occur at the moment of fertilization.

If you are outside a house and a murder took place, you can't say well, there's really not a definite specific time the person died, since we don't know when that was.

There is a specific moment when fertilization occurs. After that, it's a human. Before that, it wasn't.

Just like before the murder, the person was alive. After the moment of murder, the person is dead. We don't have to know when precisely that occurred to know it's true.
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Old Yesterday, 06:47 PM
 
13,504 posts, read 14,133,703 times
Reputation: 11137
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
Well, parasites ARE alive. Do you think parasites are dead just because they get their nutrition from a host?

And so are fetuses. They are very, very much alive and they move around and make facial expressions.
It is a developing human just because it moves around and has involuntary movement doesn’t make it a person
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Old Yesterday, 07:17 PM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
1,925 posts, read 705,202 times
Reputation: 3899
Quote:
Originally Posted by turkeydance View Post


Two problems to that: (1) the survival of that individual was highly dependent on the availability of technology. Eighty years ago, the fetus would not have survived, and (B) that sort of thing at that age is extremely rare. Most fetus would not have survived.


I should think we need some sort of universal definition.
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Old Yesterday, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Under Moon & Star
1,758 posts, read 636,487 times
Reputation: 9896
Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post
Thanks for not mentioning abortion
Oh, get real. The entire topic that you presented is in the context of abortion. Spare us your histrionics that someone didn't pretend it wasn't.

Now, there is no clear line as to when a person is a person. That's not a satisfying answer but, hey, guess what? That's the way it goes. The problem is that people want simple answers and there are rarely simple answers. In regards to when a person is a person - and, I'll say it again, this is all about abortion no matter how much you want to insist that it isn't - isn't something we can 'discover'. Rather, it's something we have to collectively define as a society. It will be based partly on reason and partly on practicality. That's not satisfying. Too bad. Life and society isn't about making you or I feel good.

I suggest that if you really want to have a serious discussion - and I am by no means convinced that you do - that you drop the arbitrary "You can't mention X!" dictates. Since you're not the lord of what people can discuss, your demands are going to be ignored anyway, as well they should be.
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