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Old Yesterday, 07:51 PM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
1,925 posts, read 705,202 times
Reputation: 3899

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetdreams2013 View Post
The genetic code of our species. If you carry it, you are a human being.

As for personhood, that's tied to a whole mess of philosophy and sentiments that I don't think will help us reach a sensible, objective conclusion.

A cancerous tumor carries the complete human genetic code and can be kept alive in vitro almost indefinitely. Is it a human individual deserving of protection under the law, voting privileges, etc?


As for your thoughts on personhood, I agree that it's a matter of philosophy at present. I'm seeking an objective definition, if one exists. Maybe it doesn't and we'll be left with an arbitrary definition for legal purposes. That's how it is now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares View Post
My opinion is human life becomes a person when it emerges from the host body.
Judge Napolitano's is contradictory right out of the shoot: a human life becomes a person at conception because at that point it has POTENTIAL to become fully developed and born..

I agree that the potential to be an independent individual is too vague. An unfertilized egg or a sperm cell has the potential, what with modern technology. If we go by that, then every month that goes by and a female does not get pregnant must represent a murder, and every male's ejaculation rates millions of counts of murder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LesLucid View Post

. Blacks were once not treated as persons deserving protection under the law in this country not long ago.

.

That's one example of why I didn't think we should include legal precedents as "proof." They are themselves arbitrary and change too easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by townshend View Post

Finally, the concept of "personhood") is a philosophical and legal concept. To summarize, the correct approach combines embryological fact and philosophical considerations: science and philosophy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hothulamaui View Post
A subjective question that will never be answered by fact. I believe it becomes a person when itís born.

I think we can exclude "potential human being" as the definition, so we can exclude unfertilized eggs or sperm cells as people. Can anybody object to that?


And I think we can all agree that once born, full term or premature, the little guy can be considered "a Person." Any objections?


So now we're left with analyzing the other milestones of development from fertilization to birth. If we chose a definition of "person" somewhere in between those points, at what point will the person be required to apply for a Social Security number? Why?
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Old Yesterday, 08:14 PM
 
Location: Tar Heel State
294 posts, read 98,214 times
Reputation: 574
Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post
A cancerous tumor carries the complete human genetic code and can be kept alive in vitro almost indefinitely. Is it a human individual deserving of protection under the law, voting privileges, etc?
I think that falls under the subject of personhood. Also, you can say the same for sperm or an egg. Both carry human genetic material, but they are merely components that help make up a human being, biologically speaking.
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Old Yesterday, 09:00 PM
 
196 posts, read 89,324 times
Reputation: 747
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
The fact that we, on the outside of the mother's body can't usually pinpoint when the fertilization occurred doesn't change the fact that it does occur at the moment of fertilization.

If you are outside a house and a murder took place, you can't say well, there's really not a definite specific time the person died, since we don't know when that was.

There is a specific moment when fertilization occurs. After that, it's a human. Before that, it wasn't.

Just like before the murder, the person was alive. After the moment of murder, the person is dead. We don't have to know when precisely that occurred to know it's true.

Murder is more likely to be a specific event -- the moment a bullet makes contact with head or heart. If you slit someone's throat, you will bleed to death rather rapidly from the aorta being slit. In both cases, death would be rather rapid. And we can all imagine cases when death is very slow -- taking weeks. Death can be very rapid or very slow, or somewhere in between. I fail to see any validity to your comparison of fertilization vs. death.

And embryologists are not "blind" to what is going on the womb. There are important blood assays (e.g., detecting human chorionic gonadotropin) and transvaginal ultrasound. We gain more knowledge from histopathology and ART (= artificial reproductive techniques).

Again, the process by which the sperm and egg become a zygote isn't something that happens in a micro-, milli-second, or even a regular second. It is not a moment. It is a long, drawn out process that takes twenty-four hours, and it isn't a static, but a dynamic process.

One of the best embyrology resources on the internet is from the University of South Wales: https://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/e....php/Main_Page

I suggest you read about all the steps involved in the fertilization process, and then you tell us why the one who have chosen is THE event that marks the transition from non-life to life.

EDIT: on the DNA argument, I would like to add that the rate of spontaneous abortion is estimated to be around 60%. DNA guarantees nothing, because the majority of these will abort and not make it to physical birth. Some spontaneous abortions occur so early that a woman's cycle is not delayed. Since here menstrual is not delayed, she will not even know that she was pregnant (this is known as occult abortions). This overall topic is referred to as pregnancy wastage. The human reproductive process is inefficient. This is the consensus of embryologists. Just Google "pregnancy wastage" and start reading articles.

Last edited by townshend; Yesterday at 09:15 PM..
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Old Yesterday, 09:19 PM
 
196 posts, read 89,324 times
Reputation: 747
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetdreams2013 View Post
I think that falls under the subject of personhood. Also, you can say the same for sperm or an egg. Both carry human genetic material, but they are merely components that help make up a human being, biologically speaking.
Guido can surely ask why aren't the components (the egg and sperm) considered worthy of protection? After all, they are the only components that make a human being. And why do you say "merely"? Don't you think they are quite special?
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Old Yesterday, 11:08 PM
 
Location: Southwest Washington State
19,558 posts, read 12,895,296 times
Reputation: 25735
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
I agree. An embryo is alive, and in my opinion, a human being.

The fact that it lives within a uterus instead of out, doesn't make any less an alive human being.

The reason we're NOT willing to say that, the obvious, is because we then have to decide whether it's ok to kill a living human being through abortion, and for many, it's just easier to say well no, that's not actually alive.

Back millennials ago, there was the saying "the quick and the dead". The alive and the dead. And "quick" was determined as when the mother could feel kicking. So at about 15 weeks gestation.

Which has no bearing on my view of abortion, either. I'm just willing to stare it in the face and say yes, it is a living human being. And yes, the mother has choice of whether to host the baby, up to, say 12 weeks gestation.
I agree with your viewpoint. In fact, we do speak of an unborn baby dying. I know Iíve read that a conceptus can die, triggering an early miscarriage. If the conceptus can die, it certainly has lived.
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Old Today, 07:00 AM
 
Location: Tar Heel State
294 posts, read 98,214 times
Reputation: 574
Quote:
Originally Posted by townshend View Post
Guido can surely ask why aren't the components (the egg and sperm) considered worthy of protection? After all, they are the only components that make a human being. And why do you say "merely"? Don't you think they are quite special?
No, not as special as the human brain.
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Old Today, 07:23 AM
 
33,571 posts, read 23,282,535 times
Reputation: 30565
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares View Post
My opinion is human life becomes a person when it emerges from the host body.
Judge Napolitano's is contradictory right out of the shoot: a human life becomes a person at conception because at that point it has POTENTIAL to become fully developed and born. It also has the potential to be absorbed, miscarried, aborted. Potential is just that, having the capacity to become. When one is born they have beat all odds and fulfilled that capacity.


Yes, this. So obvious.


Sure, cells/sperm/eggs/fertilized carry the code, the code for being a human being, but they are not a person.
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Old Today, 07:36 AM
 
7,323 posts, read 2,864,125 times
Reputation: 19492
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares View Post
My opinion is human life becomes a person when it emerges from the host body.
Judge Napolitano's is contradictory right out of the shoot: a human life becomes a person at conception because at that point it has POTENTIAL to become fully developed and born. It also has the potential to be absorbed, miscarried, aborted. Potential is just that, having the capacity to become. When one is born they have beat all odds and fulfilled that capacity.
A newborn infant is BY NO MEANS fully developed. At all.

If we're waiting for the individual to be fully developed, a person isn't a person until they're about 25 years old. And then at about 55 they begin to lose capacity, so do they exit the "human" category at that point?

What about people who reach into mid years without ever reaching their full human possible potential - they have CP and never are able to speak or walk?

It is a slippery, slippery slope when we don't just face the obvious fact, that a human being, with a full set of 46 chromosomes that are human, is the beginning of the life.
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Old Today, 07:39 AM
 
7,323 posts, read 2,864,125 times
Reputation: 19492
Quote:
Originally Posted by townshend View Post
Murder is more likely to be a specific event -- the moment a bullet makes contact with head or heart. If you slit someone's throat, you will bleed to death rather rapidly from the aorta being slit. In both cases, death would be rather rapid. And we can all imagine cases when death is very slow -- taking weeks. Death can be very rapid or very slow, or somewhere in between. I fail to see any validity to your comparison of fertilization vs. death.

And embryologists are not "blind" to what is going on the womb. There are important blood assays (e.g., detecting human chorionic gonadotropin) and transvaginal ultrasound. We gain more knowledge from histopathology and ART (= artificial reproductive techniques).

Again, the process by which the sperm and egg become a zygote isn't something that happens in a micro-, milli-second, or even a regular second. It is not a moment. It is a long, drawn out process that takes twenty-four hours, and it isn't a static, but a dynamic process.

One of the best embyrology resources on the internet is from the University of South Wales: https://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/e....php/Main_Page

I suggest you read about all the steps involved in the fertilization process, and then you tell us why the one who have chosen is THE event that marks the transition from non-life to life.

EDIT: on the DNA argument, I would like to add that the rate of spontaneous abortion is estimated to be around 60%. DNA guarantees nothing, because the majority of these will abort and not make it to physical birth. Some spontaneous abortions occur so early that a woman's cycle is not delayed. Since here menstrual is not delayed, she will not even know that she was pregnant (this is known as occult abortions). This overall topic is referred to as pregnancy wastage. The human reproductive process is inefficient. This is the consensus of embryologists. Just Google "pregnancy wastage" and start reading articles.
Yeah, thanks. I'm pretty sure, as a former childbirth educator and labor coach, I understand the fertilization process quite well. And murder takes as long as the sperm and egg to become one, and form a new individual human unless your method of murder is dropping an atom bomb on someone. Although the process of the sperm reaching the egg and penetrating the egg cell wall is a process, once it's inside is the event.
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Old Today, 08:38 AM
 
Location: Boston, MA
11,125 posts, read 7,862,484 times
Reputation: 5395
At conception.

And that is based on science.
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