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Old 01-14-2019, 11:42 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
3,374 posts, read 1,883,971 times
Reputation: 3181

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieSkoon View Post
Well... if it is one hundred percent accurate without fail, accounting for nervous anxiety, accounting for mental illness, it would NEVER fail; it would be excellent.
I'm sure researchers themselves will find ways to account for these. As said, courts currently hesitate to use this as evidence against or for the accused precisely because we still have only very basic knowledge of how brains function - possibly excepting the most thoroughly proven instances (tumors in certain areas). In a sense, this is like astronomy (especially one to three centuries ago): Our detection equipment is advanced enough to detect what happens, but we often don't have sufficient explanations for why that event/phenomenon happens. Very often we don't even have a good theory to guide us in this regard

(I mean the scientific, not common, definition of "theory" - an explanation about how a lot of facts work together, as opposed to a mere guess).

Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieSkoon View Post
I'm dealing with some false accusations in my personal life right now and I'd love something like that to prove myself... if it worked reliably.

However, it probably would not work properly and I can see innocent people being given guilty sentencing just because they were under a lot of stress.

Very much possible, especially if we have inadequate knowledge of how, when, and why certain regions of the brain function the way they do. It looks like science has learned its lesson from relying on polygraphs. Still, the neuroscience community can't ever afford to get too confident.
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Old 01-15-2019, 08:44 AM
Status: "Mae gwen a'r byd yn gwenu gyda chi" (set 18 days ago)
 
1,410 posts, read 1,853,418 times
Reputation: 1905
It might have a temporary "Moses Effect" in that it would temporarily part the seas of injustice and create dry land and a clear path for justice to be served.

But how long do you think it would take before well to do wrongdoer's started hiring high priced attorney's or ran the prosecution around in circles with "expert testimony", bribed machine operators to skew results in their favor. Or if all else fails, get someone to declare them temporarily or permanently insane, or say someone cleverly injected incriminating brain wave patterns into their mind...

The poor and/or people who could not afford slick defense would wind up getting locked up right and left, with the well to do going free. The seas injustice crashing in again!
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Old 01-16-2019, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Colorado
10,495 posts, read 6,643,128 times
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I think that if the science reaches a point where it's truly extremely reliable, fully tested, all bugs worked out, like a really polished and bulletproof product...

I would love for it to be available upon request, so that the innocent could clear their names. That would be great.

As to the trickier matter of using it against someone's will or without their consent, I could actually envision that being justified in the most severe of crimes--murder, aggravated violent sexual assaults, child molestation, human trafficking, knowingly committing treasonous compromise of national security...but I don't think it should be possible to force someone to submit to brain scanning in cases of property crimes, drug possession and use, traffic violations...like, not every little thing. I mean, anyhow, it's got to be a pretty expensive machine and procedure, it's not like our governments local, state, and federal, would want to be using it for parking tickets anyhow.

Really, just the cases where someone is a plausible hazard to society and should really be removed from it, permanently.

Or of course, such could reveal if there is some condition of their brain, that could get them sent to a hospital facility or corrected with surgery or medication.
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Old 01-16-2019, 11:53 PM
 
Location: Richmond
1,559 posts, read 760,622 times
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The biggest problem is if it is any kind of technology, then it is something that can be hacked or abused to give a different outcome then the truth.


If memories can be extracted, how hard would it be to insert false memories.
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Old 01-18-2019, 03:04 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
3,374 posts, read 1,883,971 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShouldIMoveOrStayPut...? View Post
But how long do you think it would take before well to do wrongdoer's started hiring high priced attorney's or ran the prosecution around in circles with "expert testimony", bribed machine operators to skew results in their favor. Or if all else fails, get someone to declare them temporarily or permanently insane, or say someone cleverly injected incriminating brain wave patterns into their mind...

The poor and/or people who could not afford slick defense would wind up getting locked up right and left, with the well to do going free. The seas injustice crashing in again!
1. Put the interrogator and scanners in a room with ten or so cameras and electronic ears.

2. Have multiple redundant tests to reduce the odds of bribery, say four or five tests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
I think that if the science reaches a point where it's truly extremely reliable, fully tested, all bugs worked out, like a really polished and bulletproof product...

I would love for it to be available upon request, so that the innocent could clear their names. That would be great.

As to the trickier matter of using it against someone's will or without their consent, I could actually envision that being justified in the most severe of crimes--murder, aggravated violent sexual assaults, child molestation, human trafficking, knowingly committing treasonous compromise of national security...but I don't think it should be possible to force someone to submit to brain scanning in cases of property crimes, drug possession and use, traffic violations...like, not every little thing. I mean, anyhow, it's got to be a pretty expensive machine and procedure, it's not like our governments local, state, and federal, would want to be using it for parking tickets anyhow.

Really, just the cases where someone is a plausible hazard to society and should really be removed from it, permanently.

Or of course, such could reveal if there is some condition of their brain, that could get them sent to a hospital facility or corrected with surgery or medication.
Agreed about a plausible hazard to society. But I'd also add serious white collar felonies to your list. Why exclude wealthier professional criminals from this practice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rigby06 View Post
The biggest problem is if it is any kind of technology, then it is something that can be hacked or abused to give a different outcome then the truth.


If memories can be extracted, how hard would it be to insert false memories.
I know it's a popular science fiction idea, but it strikes me as much harder to create ad hoc (i.e., "for that purpose") false memories than it is to retrieve actual memories. Sure we can debate if the person him or herself actually created those false memories him or herself. But that's a different matter from a simple sci-fi "upload" of false memories into the brain - unless I'm missing something here.

At any rate, neither I nor the article claimed it'd be a magic bullet. Brain scans would simply one tool among other evidence-collecting techniques and nothing more.
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Old 01-18-2019, 08:19 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
25,416 posts, read 60,837,014 times
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I am not sure it will prove much. Often guilty people really believe they did not do it. they have actual real perceptions and memories of them not doing the crime. the brain scan can only show that they truly believe they did not do it. So it cannot prove innocence beyond any doubt, it can only show whether they believe the are innocent.

The same is true of guilt to a lesser extent. People can believe they are guilty when they actually are not. Or a disorder that is not going to register on a brain scan like extreme low self esteem may makes them believe in their brain they they must be guilty because the police say they are guilty.

Unless you can tap into people/s visual and aural memories, including suppressed memories, I do not see how this will ever conclusively prove anything. It might be used to add to or detract from credibility. However as discussed in the latter case you get into potential violations of constitutional rights.
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Old 01-18-2019, 09:15 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
2,166 posts, read 777,787 times
Reputation: 4472
In the words of George Costanza-- "Remember, Jerry-- it's not a lie if you don't think it's a lie."


Note that ALL biological tests have their inherit rates of false negatives and false positives and results fall into a bell shaped curve.


The famous play Roshomon illustrates how the psychology of perception affects reality. Can this test differentiate between imagination & reality? Memories vs dreams?
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Old 01-18-2019, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Long Island, NYUSA, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way.
7,059 posts, read 2,109,588 times
Reputation: 1873
I'd like to read more of the piece @ the OP, when I go to, I get "We're sorry. That page couldn't be found." Is there another place?
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Old 01-18-2019, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
3,374 posts, read 1,883,971 times
Reputation: 3181
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
I'd like to read more of the piece @ the OP, when I go to, I get "We're sorry. That page couldn't be found." Is there another place?
https://www.insidescience.org/news/b...ghts-nightmare
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Old 01-18-2019, 07:14 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
3,374 posts, read 1,883,971 times
Reputation: 3181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
I am not sure it will prove much. Often guilty people really believe they did not do it. they have actual real perceptions and memories of them not doing the crime. the brain scan can only show that they truly believe they did not do it. So it cannot prove innocence beyond any doubt, it can only show whether they believe the are innocent.

The same is true of guilt to a lesser extent. People can believe they are guilty when they actually are not. Or a disorder that is not going to register on a brain scan like extreme low self esteem may makes them believe in their brain they they must be guilty because the police say they are guilty.

Unless you can tap into people/s visual and aural memories, including suppressed memories, I do not see how this will ever conclusively prove anything. It might be used to add to or detract from credibility. However as discussed in the latter case you get into potential violations of constitutional rights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post
In the words of George Costanza-- "Remember, Jerry-- it's not a lie if you don't think it's a lie."


Note that ALL biological tests have their inherit rates of false negatives and false positives and results fall into a bell shaped curve.


The famous play Roshomon illustrates how the psychology of perception affects reality. Can this test differentiate between imagination & reality? Memories vs dreams?
Like I said above, brain scans would be just one tool among many - like DNA, blood, hair, witness testimony, fingerprinting, forensics of bullet and gun matching, and so on and so forth. No system's perfect, but anything we can do to reduce the odds of wrongful conviction closer to zero helps.
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