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Old 03-09-2022, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Chicago
2,222 posts, read 2,379,137 times
Reputation: 5844

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
The topic of this thread, which I started, is people's feelings about the countries they or their ancestors left in the rear-view mirror. It is easy, living in a relatively free country, to sit behind a keyboard and lob word-bombs at the country. No one is coming for you, and that is one of the many great things about this country.

If you were a Russian living in Russia, or a Chinese person living in China, would you be sitting on a computer hammering Putin or Xi? I highly doubt it. If you did so you could expect an aggressive police response. And you wouldn't have to threaten the officer with the risk of your having firepower or get highly aggressive with the officer to suffer and suffer mightily.

The fact is, whatever the injustices that may have existed or may still exist in the U.S., it's a pretty warm and safe place, even for those that verbally hate it. Consider yourself among the luckiest people in the world, if you have the privilege of living here.
You and I have no quarrel. I have a problem with those that attack someone for their ancestry. I believe everyone should be evaluated not by their family tree or their color, but by the contents of their character. I'm quite sure that most Ukrainians living in the U.S. or Canada have very constructive people in their family tree.

In my case, the people who remained behind were quite likely massacred. I, seriously, extend my prayers for the survivors in your family and others living in that part of the world and hope they gain the peace in their lives that is their right as human beings.
I definitely agree with this. More people need to realize it. They wouldn't be able to complain about Trump in public all day long without consequences if they lived in a place like Russia. I think if you abide by the laws in the U.S., generally the police will leave you alone.
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Old 03-09-2022, 03:04 PM
 
4,143 posts, read 1,835,559 times
Reputation: 5770
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgordeeva View Post
I definitely agree with this. More people need to realize it. They wouldn't be able to complain about Trump in public all day long without consequences if they lived in a place like Russia. I think if you abide by the laws in the U.S., generally the police will leave you alone.
I also agree that we have amazing freedoms here in the U.S. Granted, people will complain about "cancel culture" when somebody is booted off a privately-owned platform such as Twitter or FaceBook or even the City-Data forums for not following the rules, but those who call this "censorship" have little to no concept of what actual censorship (a government tool) entails. There is no way that American citizens experience the oppressive censorship initiated by autocratic governments such as Russia, North Korea, and Saudi Arabia (to name a few).

I don't agree, however, with your statement: "... if you abide by the laws in the U.S., generally the police will leave you alone." If you happen to fit a certain "profile" (usually involving race, sometimes religion, and sometimes even the fact that your car's license plate reveals you to be a resident of another state), then you may discover that there are a number of small-town police departments throughout the United States that can be quite autocratic due to the fact that they lack sufficient training and oversight.

This, of course, has more to do with the flaws in human nature than with flaws in our system of government, IMO. Because we can openly speak out against such things, and seek justice through our court systems, whereas in autocracies one cannot.
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Old 03-10-2022, 08:41 AM
 
1,618 posts, read 816,833 times
Reputation: 2551
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
The problem with this is that is very one-sided.

Make no mistake about it. America is not a perfect country. For that matter there is no perfect country. I want to take your list of things one by one though:

1. Slavery. Please don't think America is unique here. Slavery was practiced in probably most of the countries in the world at one time. It still goes on--under the radar--in many countries of the world. It took a war to do it, but we had the sense to end slavery in our country and we did it within our own political system by enacting the Thirteenth Amendment. I doubt our record is worse than most other countries.

2. Genocide of Native Americans. Our treatment of the Indian people left much to be desired. Still, it is more complicated than most think. There are stories about Indians catching ill and dying in mass of diseases we brought to the New World before we ever had direct contact with them. These diseases resulted in epidemics killing large portions of the Indian population. It was not deliberate. Its simply that combining our two races on the same continent was not good for a race that had not developed immunity to all the diseases white people had encountered while in Europe. Some of the hostility with Indian people resulted because some Indian tribes raped, murdered, and kidnapped white people they came in contact with. Other Indian tribes allied with the British to defeat Americans during the Revolutionary War. I am not happy with how we treated Native Americans, but indigenous people were seldom treated well by European colonialists. You can talk to the Maori in New Zealand and the Aboriginie people in Australia and you'll hear stories that are equally bad. This was not unique to America.

3. Internment of the Japanese. Its best to begin this by describing how wounded America was by the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. All countries have a certain amount of prejudice against immigrants. That prejudice only gradually resolves as the group demonstrates its value and makes an accommodation with those who are already here. The attack on Pearl Harbor turned inevitable prejudice and racism into fear and hysteria. There was also a reality that a handful of the Japanese probably did pose some threat to the United States and there was no realistic way to weed them out. So, we interned the Japanese in camps where most of them remained until nearly the end of the war. We did finally realize our mistake though and years later passed a law apologizing to this group and extending them some belated compensation.

4. Bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. No apologies from me there. We were at war with Japan and the bombings helped bring the war to an end. Plus, the Japanese were warned something like that would happen if they did not give up.

5. Nation building projects gone wrong. Not all of them. We supported South Korea in the Korean War and today it is a prosperous democratic nation. Efforts to help people abroad may be impractical and may not work out. I do not call what we attempted to do in Afghanistan as "wrong".

6. Highest incarceration rates in the world. Its slowly being remedied. Racial tension has much to do with the high crime rate in this country. We are slowly changing policy when it comes to the war on drugs.

7. Outrageous gun violence and school shootings. People have access to guns and firearms in our country because of the Second Amendment. It allows us to defend ourselves against criminals who would break into our homes and harm us. Sometimes, the wrong persons get their hands on guns, but if must be weighed against a constitutional right and the fact that millions of lawful gun owners use those weapons responsibly.

8. Culture of narcissism. I truly do not know what you mean here.

I am not ashamed of this history. In reality, it is better than the history of most countries. Britain was a savage place in the 1500's. The French Revolution was more brutal than the American Revolution. I don't think I need to say anything specific about Germany. What do you think Spain was like during the Inquisition?

Finally are you personally doing anything about the problems you have described? Its easy to complain. Its harder to work for positive change.

I think the best way to look at America is to view it as a work in progress. To paraphrase the poet, Robert Frost, "We have promises to keep, promises to keep, and miles to go before we sleep".
The above is exactly what I was pointing out to "Rachel NY" in her excellent post a few pages back. The poster is basically saying
"what we did wasn't that bad"
"everyone was doing it"
"people should just get over it"

Instead of trying to preserve ego or continue a misguided belief in self-righteousness, maybe one should ask why don't millions of people feel the same. For a country that has only existed for 246 years, the U.S. history is just as brutal. Most of the savage acts we accuse others of committing we had done the exact same thing in some compacity. You don't get pass because you didn't go as far as others. That's like a bully feeling good about himself because he just slaps people as opposed to punching. What makes ours worse is we do it under a pretense of making the world better. Better for whom.
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Old 03-10-2022, 11:28 AM
 
14,300 posts, read 14,095,170 times
Reputation: 45421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Major View Post
The above is exactly what I was pointing out to "Rachel NY" in her excellent post a few pages back. The poster is basically saying
"what we did wasn't that bad"
"everyone was doing it"
"people should just get over it"

Instead of trying to preserve ego or continue a misguided belief in self-righteousness, maybe one should ask why don't millions of people feel the same. For a country that has only existed for 246 years, the U.S. history is just as brutal. Most of the savage acts we accuse others of committing we had done the exact same thing in some compacity. You don't get pass because you didn't go as far as others. That's like a bully feeling good about himself because he just slaps people as opposed to punching. What makes ours worse is we do it under a pretense of making the world better. Better for whom.
There are some people in this country that will never cease complaining. It challenges someone like me who is basically liberal and has supported most reformist legislation. We reach a point where we kind of just say "if all you see is the bad and you cannot see any good why bother to change anything at all"? If there is nothing we can do and no reform that will be deemed enough than what is the point? Why not just leave things the way they are and forget about you?

John F. Kennedy summed it up for me when he said "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what YOU can do for your country". Kennedy was encouraging Americans to get out there and do the hard work of fixing what is wrong with this country and stop expecting something to be handed to them. A whole lot of people could gain much by pontificating for a few minutes every day about that quote. I run into people who ***** and whine constantly who can be bothered to take the time to even vote. Or, when their rather extreme candidate predictably loses in a primary election they just cannot understand that everyone does not share their views.

So many groups of immigrants have come to this country and absolutely thrived. I think of Asian Americans who as a whole have done extremely well here. Jewish people have done well in America. Italian Americans experienced huge prejudice when they immigrated to this country and yet the vast majority found a good place for themselves in America. My own family came from Scotland and did not immigrate to America until about 1910. My grandfather was a coal miner. Yet, my mother and father rose to hold important positions in law and in the nursing field and became nearly wealthy.

Its not being self-righteous. Its called being realistic and understanding that no country is perfect. Its about doing what you can within the system to reform and fix things that are not right. Finally, its about being a good, productive citizen and taking advantage of opportunities that exist in this country and hopefully seeing that others get those opportunities as well.

Criticism is fine. But if all you are here to do is whine and moan most of us have little use for you.

Last edited by markg91359; 03-10-2022 at 11:48 AM..
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Old 03-10-2022, 11:41 AM
Status: "A solution in search of a problem" (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: New York Area
34,416 posts, read 16,510,164 times
Reputation: 29595
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Major View Post
The above is exactly what I was pointing out to "Rachel NY" in her excellent post a few pages back. The poster is basically saying
"what we did wasn't that bad"
"everyone was doing it"
"people should just get over it"

Instead of trying to preserve ego or continue a misguided belief in self-righteousness, maybe one should ask why don't millions of people feel the same. For a country that has only existed for 246 years, the U.S. history is just as brutal. Most of the savage acts we accuse others of committing we had done the exact same thing in some compacity. You don't get pass because you didn't go as far as others. That's like a bully feeling good about himself because he just slaps people as opposed to punching. What makes ours worse is we do it under a pretense of making the world better. Better for whom.
Is our history "just as brutal" or "you didn't go as far as others"? Let's be clear; nation formation is not a suicide pact. World history has been dominated by the movement of peoples, some mostly peaceful, some quite to the contrary. Obviously some of the original migration out of the Great Rift Valley was peaceful, except the wildlife along the way may not agree. There were simply no people there. Immigration counts as movement of peoples. In most cases that was peaceful even if not unanimously applauded. Other movement, such as the movement of white people to the Americas and Australia, was mixed. Mass die-offs, largely sparked by smallpox occurred, leaving the survivors without leadership and demoralized. There were also some atrocities along the way.

Further, when more advanced people and less advanced people interact, the results are predictable and tragic. And yes, there are differences in degree in the "savage acts."
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Old 03-10-2022, 02:38 PM
 
1,618 posts, read 816,833 times
Reputation: 2551
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
There are some people in this country that will never cease complaining. It challenges someone like me who is basically liberal and has supported most reformist legislation. We reach a point where we kind of just say "if all you see is the bad and you cannot see any good why bother to change anything at all"? If there is nothing we can do and no reform that will be deemed enough than what is the point? Why not just leave things the way they are and forget about you?

John F. Kennedy summed it up for me when he said "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what YOU can do for your country". Kennedy was encouraging Americans to get out there and do the hard work of fixing what is wrong with this country and stop expecting something to be handed to them. A whole lot of people could gain much by pontificating for a few minutes every day about that quote. I run into people who ***** and whine constantly who can be bothered to take the time to even vote. Or, when their rather extreme candidate predictably loses in a primary election they just cannot understand that everyone does not share their views.

So many groups of immigrants have come to this country and absolutely thrived. I think of Asian Americans who as a whole have done extremely well here. Jewish people have done well in America. Italian Americans experienced huge prejudice when they immigrated to this country and yet the vast majority found a good place for themselves in America. My own family came from Scotland and did not immigrate to America until about 1910. My grandfather was a coal miner. Yet, my mother and father rose to hold important positions in law and in the nursing field and became nearly wealthy.

Its not being self-righteous. Its called being realistic and understanding that no country is perfect. Its about doing what you can within the system to reform and fix things that are not right. Finally, its about being a good, productive citizen and taking advantage of opportunities that exist in this country and hopefully seeing that others get those opportunities as well.

Criticism is fine. But if all you are here to do is whine and moan most of us have little use for you.
There are some people in this country who will always be delusional and try to hide or downplay their sins, all while criticizing others around the world for doing the exact same acts. Extremely hypocritical. I’m curious what reformist legislation have you supported? Blacks can’t even get an anti-lynching bill passed. As I have stated multiple times. America refuses to acknowledge its sins while at the same time feeling the need to hold everyone else accountable.

Sadly, I have given up. The anti-CRT crowd is just enabling the next the group of doubters furthering the problem. Race conflicts appears to be a part of the society. Regardless, I don’t complain about a seat at the table. I make my own table. I’m just worried “the man” will take it away once he views me as too successful and starts to become insecure. Tulsa race massacre anyone.

It’s hard to do for your country if you feel that the country is not doing anything for you. To just tell these people they should suck it up and be happy because it could be worse, is insensitive. After all as I learned in the military, attitude begets leadership.

You’re right so many groups have come over and succeeded. The old “pull yourself up by the bootstraps” line. It’s great they had bootstraps. Not everyone had that luxury. Great all those other groups had another group who took the beatings, incurred wrath, and worked to the point death making it so they had something to come over to.

End of the day, posters like yourself believe what you believe, and I believe what I believe. We have come to our conclusions based upon lived experiences. I don’t discredit your viewpoint. I just hope young people who are reading this thread can get the whole perspective.
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Old 03-10-2022, 02:42 PM
 
1,618 posts, read 816,833 times
Reputation: 2551
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Is our history "just as brutal" or "you didn't go as far as others"? Let's be clear; nation formation is not a suicide pact. World history has been dominated by the movement of peoples, some mostly peaceful, some quite to the contrary. Obviously some of the original migration out of the Great Rift Valley was peaceful, except the wildlife along the way may not agree. There were simply no people there. Immigration counts as movement of peoples. In most cases that was peaceful even if not unanimously applauded. Other movement, such as the movement of white people to the Americas and Australia, was mixed. Mass die-offs, largely sparked by smallpox occurred, leaving the survivors without leadership and demoralized. There were also some atrocities along the way.

Further, when more advanced people and less advanced people interact, the results are predictable and tragic. And yes, there are differences in degree in the "savage acts."
I'm not disagreeing with most of your points. Humans by nature seem to be brutal particularly to other groups. Tribalism at work. I'm merely stating constantly criticizing or as another poster tried to accuse me of "complaining" about others while either refusing to acknowledge your acts or saying they were not as bad as XYZ country is extremely hypocritical.
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Old 03-11-2022, 06:54 AM
 
9,952 posts, read 6,569,727 times
Reputation: 19649
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel NewYork View Post
I also agree that we have amazing freedoms here in the U.S. Granted, people will complain about "cancel culture" when somebody is booted off a privately-owned platform such as Twitter or FaceBook or even the City-Data forums for not following the rules, but those who call this "censorship" have little to no concept of what actual censorship (a government tool) entails. There is no way that American citizens experience the oppressive censorship initiated by autocratic governments such as Russia, North Korea, and Saudi Arabia (to name a few).

I don't agree, however, with your statement: "... if you abide by the laws in the U.S., generally the police will leave you alone." If you happen to fit a certain "profile" (usually involving race, sometimes religion, and sometimes even the fact that your car's license plate reveals you to be a resident of another state), then you may discover that there are a number of small-town police departments throughout the United States that can be quite autocratic due to the fact that they lack sufficient training and oversight.

This, of course, has more to do with the flaws in human nature than with flaws in our system of government, IMO. Because we can openly speak out against such things, and seek justice through our court systems, whereas in autocracies one cannot.
Absolutely. People complain about the place they live in, normally. For example, there is a member of my Meetup group from Turkey who is here temporarily doing a post-doc and considers one of the Scandinavian countries his home now. He has no desire to ever go back to Turkey, but he will acknowledge that certain countries have it worse (like Afghanistan). However, he also has a lot of complaints about the US and prefers living in Scandinavia. I’m not sure how productive it would be for him to go around saying “be glad you don’t live in Turkey” all day. Acknowledging that one place may have more significant problems does not mean you can’t recognize the problems where you are.

I agree with your assessment of censorship though. I’ve read a lot recently about how Russians don’t even believe their own family members in Ukraine calling them up and telling them what is happening because the Russian state media so heavily censors everything.
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Old 03-11-2022, 04:54 PM
 
Location: moved
13,567 posts, read 9,578,717 times
Reputation: 23302
Quote:
Originally Posted by RamenAddict View Post
Absolutely. People complain about the place they live in, normally. ....
This is paramount! When living in the countryside, I complain that my neighbors are slow, unrefined and insular. If only they could be more like city-people! When living in the city, I complain that my neighbors are frenetically scurrying, transitory, judgmental and gruff. If only they could be more like country-people!
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Old 03-11-2022, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Chicago
2,222 posts, read 2,379,137 times
Reputation: 5844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel NewYork View Post
I also agree that we have amazing freedoms here in the U.S. Granted, people will complain about "cancel culture" when somebody is booted off a privately-owned platform such as Twitter or FaceBook or even the City-Data forums for not following the rules, but those who call this "censorship" have little to no concept of what actual censorship (a government tool) entails. There is no way that American citizens experience the oppressive censorship initiated by autocratic governments such as Russia, North Korea, and Saudi Arabia (to name a few).

I don't agree, however, with your statement: "... if you abide by the laws in the U.S., generally the police will leave you alone." If you happen to fit a certain "profile" (usually involving race, sometimes religion, and sometimes even the fact that your car's license plate reveals you to be a resident of another state), then you may discover that there are a number of small-town police departments throughout the United States that can be quite autocratic due to the fact that they lack sufficient training and oversight.

This, of course, has more to do with the flaws in human nature than with flaws in our system of government, IMO. Because we can openly speak out against such things, and seek justice through our court systems, whereas in autocracies one cannot.
I have mixed feelings about this because you can't always believe everything you hear on the news. I know that specifically black people claim that they get harassed by the police... However, I think that if they are polite to the police, aren't doing anything wrong and don't try to escalate the situation, the police will likely leave them alone.
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