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Old 01-21-2009, 02:58 PM
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
32,114 posts, read 39,199,960 times
Reputation: 40569

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
How am I doing that? I don't have any kind of power to grant or deny "rights" to anyone, except, perhaps, on a more INDIVIDUAL basis. You have the "right" to bear arms, but I have the "right" to feel safe...and to BE safe. Which means I advocate removing weapons from those who would carry them. Doesn't mean I'm involved in removing them.



If you're an advocate then you're involved. To state otherwise is an attempt to shirk responsibility.

 
Old 01-21-2009, 03:01 PM
 
Location: MS
3,949 posts, read 3,856,381 times
Reputation: 1370
This thread has been a great read and I read all of it!

First, let me state my position on gun control - I'm 100% against any new regulations that limit my ownership, access to or impede the use of guns. I have a lot of them. I'm buying more of them.

I have seen the 'sheep, wolf and sheep dog' article that was mentioned earlier and I think it describes a lot of these anti's (sheep) to a tee. But looking at me you may mistake me for a sheep as well. I'm not your typical 'gun totin' bubba' that the anti's like to picture when they think of a 'gun nut'. I have a Bachelor of Science degree in Computer Information Systems and an MBA. I don't display my guns in the back window of my truck. Heck, I don't even own a truck. My wife and I are average, middle class citizens just living in the suburbs who are prepared to protect ourselves and our property with as much force as it takes. There are a LOT of us out there.

People who have known me for years and even visited my house a few times only recently found out about my gun collection. In casual conversation they asked what I bought my wife for her birthday. She got a pair of high-heeled boots from Macy's and an AR-15 from the local gun shop. She calls it her best birthday ever! Not only were they surprised to know I owned guns but that my wife does too. And that this is her 2nd 'evil black rifle'!

There has been a lot of discussion about the background checks but no mention of details. The Form 4473 (http://www.atf.gov/forms/4473/ - broken link) is what was mentioned many times. Every gun buyer fills one out with every purchase.

I want to address the people who want to limit the types and/or quantity of guns for enthusiasts and collectors. That's like telling someone he can't own a Ferrari because it has too much horsepower or telling Oprah that she doesn't need a 23,000 square foot house (yes, I Googled the size of Oprah's house). No person really needs a car or a house like that but they exist. Is an AR-15 more dangerous than a .30-06 hunting rifle? Actually, the .30 is much more deadly per shot as well as more accurate at long distances. But my AR is picked on because it is mean looking. I'm called a 'nut' because I have 3 and the parts to assemble another on the way.

Next on my purchase list is a rifle chambered for a .50cal BMG (Browning Machine Gun). No it isn't a fully automatic gun. It's a description of the ammuntion that it shoots. It is normally shot by a military machine gun but back in the '80's Ronnie Barrett came up with the crazy idea of making a shoulder fired rifle for this cartridge. The sport of long range shooting with this type of rifle is growing like crazy. It takes a great amount of skill to hit a target a mile away. It takes a math whiz to read the ballistics tables and calculate the settings on the gun. It also takes quite a bit of money to get into this since the guns are $5,000 and up with each shot costing $2 at minimum. I've never heard of someone using this type of gun to commit a crime. No one is going to rob a liquor store with a 45 pound gun. It's 5 feet long so it makes concealment a little difficult. But the state of CA banned this size rifle out of an irrational fear.

Finally, if it does come down to registration I already have a plan. Home gunsmithing. There are hundreds of plans circulating the web for everything from .45cal semi-auto pistols to AR-15's to the rifles that shoot the .50 BMG. As long as they are for personal use they are perfectly legal. Just like brewing your own beer at home. (Is it a coincidence that the same agency looks into both hobbies?) Another bit of mis-information that I read earlier dealt with serial numbers. Yes it is illegal to remove one. But if your gun never had one then that does not make it illegal. That is specifically addressed by the ATF in their home gunsmithing rules.

-Robert
 
Old 01-21-2009, 03:13 PM
 
Location: vagabond
2,631 posts, read 4,832,743 times
Reputation: 1300
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
How am I doing that? I don't have any kind of power to grant or deny "rights" to anyone, except, perhaps, on a more INDIVIDUAL basis. You have the "right" to bear arms, but I have the "right" to feel safe...and to BE safe. Which means I advocate removing weapons from those who would carry them. Doesn't mean I'm involved in removing them.
how do you not understand this? if you support the attempts to take firearms away from lawful individuals, then you are involved with the removal of them. is that not making sense yet?

you can't have it both ways.
 
Old 01-21-2009, 05:53 PM
 
Location: In a house
5,230 posts, read 7,322,321 times
Reputation: 2558
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
How am I doing that? I don't have any kind of power to grant or deny "rights" to anyone, except, perhaps, on a more INDIVIDUAL basis. You have the "right" to bear arms, but I have the "right" to feel safe...and to BE safe. Which means I advocate removing weapons from those who would carry them. Doesn't mean I'm involved in removing them.

Certainly it does. Thats how the country works. Public opinion drive political change. People like you whining about something their scared of, influences politicians who draft legislation.

You dont have a right to feel safe anyway. Feelings are abstract things. We cant do away with civil rights & liberty because you are irrational & paranoid.
 
Old 01-21-2009, 06:58 PM
 
Location: Northglenn, Colorado
3,689 posts, read 9,254,348 times
Reputation: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
How am I doing that? I don't have any kind of power to grant or deny "rights" to anyone, except, perhaps, on a more INDIVIDUAL basis. You have the "right" to bear arms, but I have the "right" to feel safe...and to BE safe. Which means I advocate removing weapons from those who would carry them. Doesn't mean I'm involved in removing them.
Where in our Constitution does it grant you the right to be safe? Safety is in the eye of the beholder, what your safe is, is not my safe.

In another gun thread you threatened to physically take guns from people you see concealing them.
 
Old 01-21-2009, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Northglenn, Colorado
3,689 posts, read 9,254,348 times
Reputation: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert_J View Post
This thread has been a great read and I read all of it!

First, let me state my position on gun control - I'm 100% against any new regulations that limit my ownership, access to or impede the use of guns. I have a lot of them. I'm buying more of them.

I have seen the 'sheep, wolf and sheep dog' article that was mentioned earlier and I think it describes a lot of these anti's (sheep) to a tee. But looking at me you may mistake me for a sheep as well. I'm not your typical 'gun totin' bubba' that the anti's like to picture when they think of a 'gun nut'. I have a Bachelor of Science degree in Computer Information Systems and an MBA. I don't display my guns in the back window of my truck. Heck, I don't even own a truck. My wife and I are average, middle class citizens just living in the suburbs who are prepared to protect ourselves and our property with as much force as it takes. There are a LOT of us out there.

People who have known me for years and even visited my house a few times only recently found out about my gun collection. In casual conversation they asked what I bought my wife for her birthday. She got a pair of high-heeled boots from Macy's and an AR-15 from the local gun shop. She calls it her best birthday ever! Not only were they surprised to know I owned guns but that my wife does too. And that this is her 2nd 'evil black rifle'!

There has been a lot of discussion about the background checks but no mention of details. The Form 4473 (http://www.atf.gov/forms/4473/ - broken link) is what was mentioned many times. Every gun buyer fills one out with every purchase.

I want to address the people who want to limit the types and/or quantity of guns for enthusiasts and collectors. That's like telling someone he can't own a Ferrari because it has too much horsepower or telling Oprah that she doesn't need a 23,000 square foot house (yes, I Googled the size of Oprah's house). No person really needs a car or a house like that but they exist. Is an AR-15 more dangerous than a .30-06 hunting rifle? Actually, the .30 is much more deadly per shot as well as more accurate at long distances. But my AR is picked on because it is mean looking. I'm called a 'nut' because I have 3 and the parts to assemble another on the way.

Next on my purchase list is a rifle chambered for a .50cal BMG (Browning Machine Gun). No it isn't a fully automatic gun. It's a description of the ammuntion that it shoots. It is normally shot by a military machine gun but back in the '80's Ronnie Barrett came up with the crazy idea of making a shoulder fired rifle for this cartridge. The sport of long range shooting with this type of rifle is growing like crazy. It takes a great amount of skill to hit a target a mile away. It takes a math whiz to read the ballistics tables and calculate the settings on the gun. It also takes quite a bit of money to get into this since the guns are $5,000 and up with each shot costing $2 at minimum. I've never heard of someone using this type of gun to commit a crime. No one is going to rob a liquor store with a 45 pound gun. It's 5 feet long so it makes concealment a little difficult. But the state of CA banned this size rifle out of an irrational fear.

Finally, if it does come down to registration I already have a plan. Home gunsmithing. There are hundreds of plans circulating the web for everything from .45cal semi-auto pistols to AR-15's to the rifles that shoot the .50 BMG. As long as they are for personal use they are perfectly legal. Just like brewing your own beer at home. (Is it a coincidence that the same agency looks into both hobbies?) Another bit of mis-information that I read earlier dealt with serial numbers. Yes it is illegal to remove one. But if your gun never had one then that does not make it illegal. That is specifically addressed by the ATF in their home gunsmithing rules.

-Robert
You are not the only "normal" person that uses his second amendment rights. I am an Architectural Designer, My wife an accountant. We have one 9mm Glock in the house. I do not have my CCW permit yet because I have not felt the need to have one, but my Father does (he is a computer programmer for the state, and as geeky as they come for computer users, including the Code Red Mtn. Dew taste) most gun owners are your typical American citizen.
 
Old 01-21-2009, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,236 posts, read 40,279,788 times
Reputation: 10915
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noahma View Post
Where in our Constitution does it grant you the right to be safe? Safety is in the eye of the beholder, what your safe is, is not my safe.

In another gun thread you threatened to physically take guns from people you see concealing them.
Are your only rights the ones your government says you have? Or are your rights merely those you can personally defend? I feel threatened by someone else having a weapon, that's why I feel it is my RIGHT to keep them from having it--to protect myself from them.
 
Old 01-21-2009, 08:20 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,236 posts, read 40,279,788 times
Reputation: 10915
The government is NOT run by public opinion. It's high time people dissuaded themselves of that fantasy.
 
Old 01-21-2009, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Northglenn, Colorado
3,689 posts, read 9,254,348 times
Reputation: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
Are your only rights the ones your government says you have? Or are your rights merely those you can personally defend? I feel threatened by someone else having a weapon, that's why I feel it is my RIGHT to keep them from having it--to protect myself from them.
Feeling safe is very subjective, you cannot put it into a simple box, and call it good for everyone. That is why it is not written into the Constitution. I feel safe with a Firearm for personal protection. why should you feel threatened when a law abiding citizen has a firearm and is not directly threatening you? Is there some psychological problem you need to have addressed? Should I say I feel threatened by someone talking to me, so we should remove the first amendment so I feel safe.
 
Old 01-21-2009, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Northglenn, Colorado
3,689 posts, read 9,254,348 times
Reputation: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
The government is NOT run by public opinion. It's high time people dissuaded themselves of that fantasy.
your right, our form of republic is ruled by rights and laws. It is very easy to enact a law, but very very tough for the government to change rights guaranteed to us. This keeps our country from being ruled by democracy, or majority rule, which is dangerous do to being able to change things on a whim due to fear, anger, and other emotions. The fear of someone, even someone with no criminal record, not even a speeding ticket with a firearm. cannot change what is guaranteed.
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