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Old 09-18-2008, 06:46 AM
 
Location: NY
1,416 posts, read 4,907,013 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Does this apply to Muslims as well as Christians?

I just don't get it, I guess. If fundamentalist Christianity has no place in government, why should any other religion? I am not anti-Muslim or anti any religion, but I do think if it's not OK for one religion to get its holidays off work, why should it be OK for another?
I agree with you: IMO, no religion should have an official place in government. And I do not think it's okay for one or more religions to get its holiday designated as a paid day off at work while others do not. Employers should either recognize NO religious holiday, or ALL of them (which of course would made no financial sense for the employer to do, hence will never happen!).
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Old 09-18-2008, 09:56 AM
 
19,183 posts, read 27,769,472 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jps-teacher View Post
For some people, morality and thoughts on religion are disconnected.
And it may be that they are onto something. It seems to me that no all-omniscient, all-powerful god can also be the source of morality. If that were the case, he could command that we all burn little children with lit cigarettes in our spare time, and we would have no recourse but to believe this to be moral behavior. If it is the case that either this god, being good, could never command such a thing, or that we, even as his followers, would want to interpose our own judgments in the matter, then it is the case that the yardstick of morality exists as a standard that is external to god, and is one that both he and we have access to...
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Old 09-18-2008, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Boise, ID
1,356 posts, read 5,332,967 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jps-teacher View Post
You previously attributed a specific causality to it, hence my disagreement.

But, I will note that I know others for whom my path would seem alien. They have morality as clear to them as mine to me, but it has not impinged on their religious belief or lack thereof even slightly.

I really get the feeling that you are trying to apply a box to all people that just does not fit everybody.

For some people, religion provides a sense of morality. For some people it does not.

For some people, morality informs their religious decisions. For some people it does not.

For some people, morality and thoughts on religion are disconnected.
I would agree with your statement in bold. I never said or meant to imply that one's view of religion in general is necessarily intertwined with their moral views.

Still, I don't see how you can separate morals and religion or lack thereof. In my previous post I backed off the assertion that religion always defines morals and recognized that the opposite might be true for some.

A person who is religious will almost certainly have some moral views that are different because of their religion. Conversely, a person whose morals lead them to not align with a religion (whether atheist or agnostic) will also almost certainly have some moral views that are different because of that decision. Otherwise if they align themselves with a religion, as I noted above, it will almost certainly have influence over their morals. A person whose moral views lead them to a specific religion will find their views reinforced and almost certainly modified to one extent or another.

Using myself as an example my views on abortion, evolution, climate change, capital punishment, gambling, and even the Founders - just to name a few - are influenced by my faith. If I were not religious or of a different religion then my views on the issues above might be slightly to vastly different, depending on the issue. I should note that not everyone in my religion shares my views on the issues I listed above, however, their views are still influenced by the way they internalize our common religion.
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Old 09-18-2008, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Boise, ID
1,356 posts, read 5,332,967 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
And it may be that they are onto something. It seems to me that no all-omniscient, all-powerful god can also be the source of morality. If that were the case, he could command that we all burn little children with lit cigarettes in our spare time, and we would have no recourse but to believe this to be moral behavior. If it is the case that either this god, being good, could never command such a thing, or that we, even as his followers, would want to interpose our own judgments in the matter, then it is the case that the yardstick of morality exists as a standard that is external to god, and is one that both he and we have access to...
I don't want to take this thread in a religious direction that is off-topic so I will just say that based on this comment you have a misunderstanding of the nature of the Christian God and the ability He gives to humans to make a choice of whether to obey Him or not.
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Old 09-18-2008, 10:34 AM
 
19,183 posts, read 27,769,472 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niners fan View Post
A person who is religious will almost certainly have some moral views that are different because of their religion. Conversely, a person whose morals lead them to not align with a religion (whether atheist or agnostic) will also almost certainly have some moral views that are different because of that decision.
If I can offer a take on that, I would say that it's those last four words that might take the statement off track. I read them to imply that one decides whether to be religious or not, and then, having made that decision, looks around for some means by which to develop a morality. Many people are born into a religion. They are trained in it from their earliest days, and being religious may as a result come to seem as natural to them as being in their own skin. It isn't so for all. Many are raised with no or only loose religious affiliation or come by some process to put the call of religion on hold for a while. Development of morality however remains an ongoing process in each such case, and that process may or may not lead those who engage in it to religion. Perhaps more often not, as a broad-based secular morailty is not likely to conform well in all of its aspects to the specific tenets of any particular religion. In such a scenario, the arrow of causality ends up being reversed. It would not be the case that people have different moral views because they chose not to be religious. It would be the case that they chose not to be religious because they have different moral views.

Last edited by saganista; 09-18-2008 at 11:07 AM..
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Old 09-18-2008, 11:06 AM
 
19,183 posts, read 27,769,472 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niners fan View Post
I don't want to take this thread in a religious direction that is off-topic so I will just say that based on this comment you have a misunderstanding of the nature of the Christian God and the ability He gives to humans to make a choice of whether to obey Him or not.
On that particular score I can with quite reasonable confidence assure that my views do not have their origin in an ignorance of Christian theology, and that yet another hearing of the Good News would not likely be of any significant effect or influence upon them. There is a larger world out there from which Christianity heavily drew and from which others can too...
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Old 09-18-2008, 11:13 AM
 
27,903 posts, read 33,467,000 times
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Prayer, God and War
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Old 09-18-2008, 12:54 PM
 
Location: Boise, ID
1,356 posts, read 5,332,967 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
On that particular score I can with quite reasonable confidence assure that my views do not have their origin in an ignorance of Christian theology, and that yet another hearing of the Good News would not likely be of any significant effect or influence upon them. There is a larger world out there from which Christianity heavily drew and from which others can too...
All I can say is that is one thing to know something or know about something but quite a different thing to understand it. And understanding something doesn't necessarily mean you have to agree with it.
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Old 09-18-2008, 04:19 PM
 
Location: The 719
13,723 posts, read 21,542,697 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totallyfrazzled View Post
.... as long as I could be CERTAIN that their religious views would not influence or impact the laws of my country, state, or community.

Unfortunately in our current political climate I am far from certain of that in most cases; that's why I gravitate toward politicians who do not make a big to-do about religion either way in the course of doing the job they were elected to do.
So how do you define "making a big to-do" about religion's influence in their policy and/or decision making? Just because they don't preach it or talk about it, you're reasonably safe that they will keep the two entities separate?

Should those that solicit or stand on their moral and spiritual and -God forbid- religious principles be punished and all together banned from politics? And how do you determine there's a link between ones dependence upon God and faith and the way they do their job?

If the terrorists are going to claim a jihad on us, we're going to fight back. What motivation would you seek for such a thing? An economic one or a personal one?

God Bless America, because I still have a right to. As sick of having some religious zealot preach to me about God, I'm even more offended by some athiest preach to me about not-God.
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Old 09-18-2008, 05:45 PM
 
2,180 posts, read 3,191,148 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niners fan View Post
I would agree with your statement in bold. I never said or meant to imply that one's view of religion in general is necessarily intertwined with their moral views.
Below is the line of yours that, to me, conflicts with what what you have just written:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niners fan View Post
I would still contend that that person's morals and lack of religion are intertwined.
Not "is often" or even "is likely to be," but "are intertwined."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niners fan View Post
Still, I don't see how you can separate morals and religion or lack thereof.
In turn, I cannot see how you can make the statement that lead that I quote first and then say this in rapid succession. There must be some division between the two that I am not reading/getting, and if some third party can clarify the difference for me, I would be grateful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niners fan View Post
In my previous post I backed off the assertion that religion always defines morals and recognized that the opposite might be true for some.
And I appreciate it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niners fan View Post
A person who is religious will almost certainly have some moral views that are different because of their religion.
I will accept that this is your experience, and note that I have no counter-evidence to offer.

[quote=Niners fan;5318672]
Conversely, a person whose morals lead them to not align with a religion (whether atheist or agnostic) will also almost certainly have some moral views that are different because of that decision. Otherwise if they align themselves with a religion, as I noted above, it will almost certainly have influence over their morals.[quote]

Two problems with this section. The second, less important, is that you totally lose me in the transition from the sentence that starts Conversely to the sentence that starts Otherwise." They seem totally unrelated.

The more important difficulty I have with it is that it seems to thoroughly ignore what I have said about either my moral development or others' of my acquaintance.

My moral views are not different because of that decision. My views did not change as a result of my conclusion. [/If P > Q does not even slightly imply or indicate either If P > Q, therefore if Q > P or If P > Q, therefore R.

But... that's just me.

My friends of whom I speak did not make such a choice, no matter how the question gets couched, any more than I chose between Cuban and Venezuelan Cigars. The question is a non-starter.

And, again, for them atheism is not a religion. It is not ATHEISM, it is atheism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niners fan View Post
their views are still influenced by the way they internalize our common religion.
Whereas we (you and I, I and these friends, and these friends and each other) do not have a religion, let alone a common one.
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