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Old 10-12-2008, 05:42 PM
 
2,180 posts, read 3,186,564 times
Reputation: 838

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
Rather than just say it, because saying it doesn't make it so.. please prove it.

And here's many more stories about denied healthcare
Guaranteed Healthcare | We Don't Need Insurance, We Need
One of the problems with conversations such as this is that the standard of proof is very hard to meet.

For example, while I am perfectly happy to grant that there are people without insurance who do not receive the care they need, a website such as the one that you provided the links to is no more going to meet a standard of proof than the other poster's claim to know many places that would offer the best care to the indigent.

In each case, it is a hearsay claim with no externally verifiable elements. As a reader with no dogs in this race, I'll note that your points are not even in conflict. S/he can know many places in Arizona that offer fine care, while the majority of places in the U.S., or even Arizona, may well offer no such opportunities for the indigent.

I hope this is making sense.

It is clear to me that the way we deal with health, from insurance to preventative care to post-surgical treatments, needs attention and some change, but I don't pretend to have nearly enough information to form an opinion on all or even most of the facets of the problem.

That the problem is deeply tied to money/poverty/wealth is pretty clear. What the ties are may be less clear.
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Old 10-12-2008, 10:51 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,514,836 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by jps-teacher
Quote:
That the problem is deeply tied to money/poverty/wealth is pretty clear. What the ties are may be less clear.
To me it is pretty clear: lack of solidarity because of how Americans interpret socialism.

Besidez, the only difference between a capitalist and a communist is that communists act out of fear while capitalists are simply submissive.
So if ya ask me capitalism is more dangerous than communism because being threatened with death or a lifelong imprisonment in a gulag is a reasonable excuse to obey while just being submissive and / or ignorant ain't.
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Old 10-12-2008, 11:14 PM
 
Location: Northglenn, Colorado
3,689 posts, read 9,250,335 times
Reputation: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by jps-teacher To me it is pretty clear: lack of solidarity because of how Americans interpret socialism.

Besidez, the only difference between a capitalist and a communist is that communists act out of fear while capitalists are simply submissive.
So if ya ask me capitalism is more dangerous than communism because being threatened with death or a lifelong imprisonment in a gulag is a reasonable excuse to obey while just being submissive and / or ignorant ain't.
it was not just a threat though, they were thrown in the gulags if they did anything that the government deemed wrong or not. Communism just makes the entire population slaves to a few, while capitalism gives each individual the choice to buy or not to buy.
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Old 10-13-2008, 12:34 AM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,236 posts, read 40,261,063 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noahma View Post
it was not just a threat though, they were thrown in the gulags if they did anything that the government deemed wrong or not. Communism just makes the entire population slaves to a few, while capitalism gives each individual the choice to buy or not to buy.
Isn't capitalism still a form of slavery? With most of the "serfs" working for their corporate masters?
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Old 10-13-2008, 12:40 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,514,836 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by Noahma
Quote:
Communism just makes the entire population slaves to a few, while capitalism gives each individual the choice to buy or not to buy.
Do the rich in the US outnumber the poor or do the poor outnumber the rich?

Are you truly that naive that you believe that there is a difference between being a slave or a wage slave?
In a capitalist society minimum wage is the new form of slavery; you still have to work your fingers to the bone in order to only survive.
You Americans have to pay a fortune for your social security.
The only reason the politicians are considering to change your healthcare system is not because the people demanded it (since they've always demanded it in the past 20 years) but because GM* is complaining that healthcare is costing them a fortune.

Besidez, although capitalism has officially denounced slavery it still is used, see human trafficking, sex slaves etc.
Quote:
* Look again at the details of GM's health coverage, and it's not hard to understand what the real problem with health costs is. USA Today begins its article this way:

Taking a cigarette break outside a General Motors (GM) assembly plant in Lansing, Mich., last week, Mike O'Driscoll admits he has problems: diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholesterol.

But his arteries are cleaned out, thanks to a $160,000 heart-bypass surgery a few years back.

"I ate too many steaks and not enough veggies," says O'Driscoll with a laugh.

For as long as O'Driscoll has worked at GM, he hasn't had to worry about health care costs. He paid nothing for his heart surgery, and he estimates that during the past five years, he has paid his cardiologist a total of $500. GM doesn't take anything out of his paycheck for health insurance.

Note that this guy who'd had bypass surgery was out having a smoke.
Source: A Canadian Econoview: U.S. Health Care and the Cost of a Car
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Old 10-13-2008, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Northglenn, Colorado
3,689 posts, read 9,250,335 times
Reputation: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
Isn't capitalism still a form of slavery? With most of the "serfs" working for their corporate masters?
in a capitalist society, you can choose who to work for. Communistic society, you only have one person you work for (the government) I most businesses in the U.S. are small family owned companies (which I work for one) If I did not like my wage, I could always find another company that will pay me more. In a communist society, you are stuck with what the government wants to pay you.
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Old 10-13-2008, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Northglenn, Colorado
3,689 posts, read 9,250,335 times
Reputation: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by Noahma Do the rich in the US outnumber the poor or do the poor outnumber the rich?

Are you truly that naive that you believe that there is a difference between being a slave or a wage slave?
In a capitalist society minimum wage is the new form of slavery; you still have to work your fingers to the bone in order to only survive.
You Americans have to pay a fortune for your social security.
The only reason the politicians are considering to change your healthcare system is not because the people demanded it (since they've always demanded it in the past 20 years) but because GM* is complaining that healthcare is costing them a fortune.

Besidez, although capitalism has officially denounced slavery it still is used, see human trafficking, sex slaves etc.
Minimum wage was not designed to live off of. I don't know one person that is still working on minimum wage except for high school students. In America, you are not a wage slave, if you do not get enough at your current job, quit and find one that pays more. (communistic society, you cannot do that)
Social Security is a broken system, back when it was instituted, you had more workers paying into the system than were receiving from the system. Our baby boomer generation did not have enough kids to replace them, it turned our system to the opposite. You now have more people drawing from the system than are putting into it, that is unsustainable. If you owned a company, and you say made coffee, you cover your employees insurance, but soon realize that you are putting out more for health care than what you are getting for your sales in coffee, would you not want help with the health care? (BTW, that scenario did happen with star bucks a few years ago)

I have yet to meet one American that thinks our healthcare system is fine as is. Every presidential nominee as long as I can remember has promised a fix to the system, but not ONE has done anything about it. There is nothing moving in our government as of right now due to pressure from GM.

the story you posted, well that helps your case about as much as telling someone to put a box in the corner of a circular room. The guy ruined his own health, yet burdens the company he works for to pay for it. If you do that to yourself, dont expect anyone to help you pay for it. Personal responsibilty here, you need personal responsibility.

Yes, our health care system is broken, but that is not the topic at hand.

I suggest you read the rules for posting in the great debates forum. And use the responses and rules outlined in there instead of replying with "
Are you truly that naive" which is a NO NO in here.
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Old 10-13-2008, 03:02 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,236 posts, read 40,261,063 times
Reputation: 10915
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noahma View Post
in a capitalist society, you can choose who to work for. Communistic society, you only have one person you work for (the government) I most businesses in the U.S. are small family owned companies (which I work for one) If I did not like my wage, I could always find another company that will pay me more. In a communist society, you are stuck with what the government wants to pay you.
One is very much like another...

except that the last time I looked for work, I couldn't find anyone to MATCH the wage I was making, much less exceed it. So...for now, I'm stuck.
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Old 10-13-2008, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Cary, NC
31,592 posts, read 55,295,005 times
Reputation: 30150
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
One is very much like another...

except that the last time I looked for work, I couldn't find anyone to MATCH the wage I was making, much less exceed it. So...for now, I'm stuck.
Folks with real ambition see someone who can exceed their wages every day... In the mirror.

You have the opportunity in a capitalist society to roll up your sleeves, hang out your shingle, and earn the living you desire.
It means accepting risk, but risk is where the rewards are.
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Old 10-13-2008, 03:34 PM
 
Location: Oviedo, Fl formerly from the Philly Burbs!
1,012 posts, read 2,356,491 times
Reputation: 365
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by Noahma Do the rich in the US outnumber the poor or do the poor outnumber the rich?

Are you truly that naive that you believe that there is a difference between being a slave or a wage slave?
In a capitalist society minimum wage is the new form of slavery; you still have to work your fingers to the bone in order to only survive.
You Americans have to pay a fortune for your social security.
The only reason the politicians are considering to change your healthcare system is not because the people demanded it (since they've always demanded it in the past 20 years) but because GM* is complaining that healthcare is costing them a fortune.

Besidez, although capitalism has officially denounced slavery it still is used, see human trafficking, sex slaves etc.
I would venture to say that a large portion of Americans making minimum wage are not the major breadwinner in the home. They are student jobs, and part time jobs that pay mininmum wage. Heck, even Mcdonalds pays more than minimum in America.

Next, Social Security in America does cost a fortune.....why? Because THE GOVERNMENT IS A POOR STEWARD OF OUR MONIES! SO WHY IN GOD'S NAME WOULD WE WANT TO PUT THEM IN CHARGE OF OUR HEALTHCARE AND OUR JOBS!!!!!!! Put those government officials who have their fancy healthcare on some welfare/medicare plan and they will get whiplash fixing it they will fix it so fast.

And I like how you phrased your last portion...Capitalism has denounced slavery yet you still find it....not here in America you don't. Not legally, and not generally tolerated by our citizenry. Only in one state is prostitution (or sex slavery which I am surmising is your allusion) even legal. The selling of persons as 'capital' is not well looked upon.

I feel it comes down to this, while Capitalism is not perfect...there is corruption indeed motivated by monetary greed - there is no way around that. Communism or socialism brings its own corruption...of politcal greed by the power hungry, who by nature use money and force (be it murder or physical force of other kinds, rape, assault, kidnapping) and make no mistake, that is where it goes eventually, just as capitalism unchecked goes where it has gone today.

I will take capitalism any time....at least we can keep it in check without an army of militants. I won't even go into the tax debate....I am sure you all can figure where I stand...hehe
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