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Old 10-17-2008, 07:12 AM
 
4,089 posts, read 4,597,255 times
Reputation: 1251

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
It's not regressive, if EVERYONE pays the same percentage. But even the flat tax isn't fair...if it's only based on EARNED income. It should also take in UNEARNED income.

Ok, I'll pay 15% of my total income if everybody else does. No refundable credits, EIC, and hidden welfare-type deductions. You realize for 35% of the families in the US, that will equate to a SUBSTANTIAL tax increase? Do you also realize that the increase will be on the poorest families?
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Old 10-17-2008, 08:36 AM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,361,805 times
Reputation: 4893
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewMexicanRepublican View Post
You realize for 35% of the families in the US, that will equate to a SUBSTANTIAL tax increase? Do you also realize that the increase will be on the poorest families?
Solution: The first, say, $20,000 of income is tax free.

There, wasn't that easy?
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Old 10-17-2008, 10:58 AM
 
3,460 posts, read 4,790,435 times
Reputation: 6677
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
It's not regressive, if EVERYONE pays the same percentage. But even the flat tax isn't fair...if it's only based on EARNED income. It should also take in UNEARNED income.
That is an excellent argument to implement a sales tax instead of an income tax.

A sales tax also fixes the problem of the companies who avoid taxes by opening an offshore 'headquarters', and would tax imports at the same rate as American products.
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:04 AM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,236 posts, read 40,266,772 times
Reputation: 10915
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewMexicanRepublican View Post
Ok, I'll pay 15% of my total income if everybody else does. No refundable credits, EIC, and hidden welfare-type deductions. You realize for 35% of the families in the US, that will equate to a SUBSTANTIAL tax increase? Do you also realize that the increase will be on the poorest families?
It will be an increase for just about everybody, if we erase all these TAX shelters.

"Oh, you put HALF your income in a 401K? ($14K limit)" How nice for you, you still owe 15% on THAT money as well. No exemptions, no credits, no exceptions. Companies' payroll departments take it out of your check, and you have to file if you have unearned income.
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:55 AM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,005,814 times
Reputation: 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by jps-teacher View Post
It very much depends on what you mean by health care.

If you mean emergency care in life threatening circumstances, then I agree with you.

But if you mean preventative care of the sort that leads to long term health and fewer long term issues, then I have to disagree. Income plays a major role in health care on a day to day, week to week basis.
That's what I was referring to. If you're not able to afford the payment and you don't qualify for assistance, then you can be denied - especially those of us who don't have health benefits through an employer and have preexisting conditions that allow insurance companies to deny us coverage. Money plays a major role.

Emergency care is different, thankfully.
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Old 10-17-2008, 12:15 PM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,005,814 times
Reputation: 488
Anyone have any idea how much income is "sheltered"? How much money is not reported due to loop holes? How much money is not paid in taxes by people who are taking advantage of the current system?

Maybe I'm way off base, but it seems to me the people with the most money have the resources to find the most loop holes in the system.
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Old 10-17-2008, 01:01 PM
 
Location: Cary, NC
31,594 posts, read 55,307,520 times
Reputation: 30150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
Anyone have any idea how much income is "sheltered"? How much money is not reported due to loop holes? How much money is not paid in taxes by people who are taking advantage of the current system?

Maybe I'm way off base, but it seems to me the people with the most money have the resources to find the most loop holes in the system.
And, yet, if you accept the OP's premise when he started the thread, a very small group pays the majority of taxes.

"Loop holes" do not keep money from being reported.
"Loop holes" forgive taxes on some earnings, or reduce reportable earnings.
One "Loop Hole" example is the deduction per dependent.
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Old 10-17-2008, 01:27 PM
 
2,180 posts, read 3,187,061 times
Reputation: 838
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJaquish View Post
So, increased income is not a path to self-improvement?
Then what is the big deal about stealing from some to give to others?
Since there is no value in other people's money, why the lust for it to spread it around?

And anyone who lives in the real world and has ever seen a bonus check or overtime-pay-premium-increased paycheck decimated by an artificially recognized higher income tax bracket can easily observe how progressive disincentives and deterrents to financial self-improvement are significant.
I think you are conflating two concepts:
Circumstance improvement vs. self-improvement.

I am no better a person for making more money, for having a bigger house than I did, etc. Nor are you, nor anybody else. This is the distinction I was making, especially since so many people have the perspective that making more money is"making something of yourself," or, as you put it, self-improvement.

Having lived in 'the real world' and having received my share of bonus checks with the higher rate of deductions from them, then to my surprise, I have to tell you, Mike, it was not a disincentive in the slightest to my working hard to earn that bonus. It did not deter me - the bonus, while having more tax taken out than my normal check, was still very appreciated by me and mine, and made me glad of my efforts even beyond the good work that had gone into earning them!

I am sorry that you seem to wish you'd not bothered putting in the work if the amount of increase in pay was not as large as you would have liked.

Please know that while there are, evidently, some out there who would turn down more money for their work because it is not enough more, there are plenty of us out here who do not see it as you do.

(In fact, you are the only person I know who thinks that getting 65% of a pay increase is worse than no pay increase at all. But I grant there may be mre of you.)
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Old 10-17-2008, 01:31 PM
 
27,903 posts, read 33,419,281 times
Reputation: 4016
Unearned income is almost taxed at 43%

Overtime all depends on the size of the check and the pay period. In one position it took me 10 OT hours to make up the fact that I was on the edge of a tax bracket. To me it was not worth it unless I did 20 hours OT and in doing that remove all hopes for an outside of work experience.

In the end I pushed myself slightly over the tax bracket at the end of the year but because of unearned income I broke free at the end of the year.
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Old 10-17-2008, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,236 posts, read 40,266,772 times
Reputation: 10915
Quote:
Originally Posted by jps-teacher View Post
I think you are conflating two concepts:
Circumstance improvement vs. self-improvement.

I am no better a person for making more money, for having a bigger house than I did, etc. Nor are you, nor anybody else. This is the distinction I was making, especially since so many people have the perspective that making more money is"making something of yourself," or, as you put it, self-improvement.

Having lived in 'the real world' and having received my share of bonus checks with the higher rate of deductions from them, then to my surprise, I have to tell you, Mike, it was not a disincentive in the slightest to my working hard to earn that bonus. It did not deter me - the bonus, while having more tax taken out than my normal check, was still very appreciated by me and mine, and made me glad of my efforts even beyond the good work that had gone into earning them!

I am sorry that you seem to wish you'd not bothered putting in the work if the amount of increase in pay was not as large as you would have liked.

Please know that while there are, evidently, some out there who would turn down more money for their work because it is not enough more, there are plenty of us out here who do not see it as you do.

(In fact, you are the only person I know who thinks that getting 65% of a pay increase is worse than no pay increase at all. But I grant there may be mre of you.)
Actually, I'd turn down anything greater than $10 an hour. I think that's all ANYONE needs to make.
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