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Old 09-14-2008, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Boise, ID
1,356 posts, read 5,324,961 times
Reputation: 889

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Quote:
Originally Posted by EEEPNJ View Post
I honestly feel, at this point, if McCain/Palin wins, I'd rather not be part of the US anymore. I KNOW THIS IS RADICAL. And I'm typically not radical. But I can't help but feel that if our values are so out of line with the values of other parts of the country - and if the will of the Right is going to be impossed even more on those of us who are not in "red states" - it's just not where I want to be.

I doubt this would lead to secession, largely because Americans as a whole lack motivation when it comes to such issues. I think more people care about the Super Bowl than the Presidential Election... but for those of us who it DOES matter... I honnestly feel this way. And I don't LIKE that I feel this way, but I do.
I appreciate the honest post. Many of us on the Right have the same fears with an Obama presidency. As one example, my marginal tax rate under his proposals would be over 50% when state income taxes are included. To me that is an immorally high rate of taxation.

This is a good example of what I stated earlier. Increasingly, the values and goals of American Conservatives and American Liberals are divergent.

I have some other thoughts on secession but I will put those in the thread that Normie is starting.
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Old 09-15-2008, 08:08 AM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,938,535 times
Reputation: 3848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niners fan View Post
Case in point - gay marriage. To the Left it is a no-brainer. Everyone should be able to marry who they love. To the Right, whose values are often derived from religion, it is unnatural and sinful. I could cite similar examples using abortion, marriage vs. living together, premarital sex, capital punishment, etc. A century ago I am willing to bet that there was much more consensus on the issues above.
A century ago, I am willing to bet that there was a lot less consensus on other issues -- such as racial equality, miscegenation, women's suffrage, immigration, consumer rights, the company store system, parents' right to educate their children as they saw fit (believe it or not, it WAS once a contentious issue whether a parent should have a right to teach their child a foreign language), and using sterilization as punishment for non-violent crime. Then, as now, many people on both sides of these issues saw the competing values as defining of their "culture" and lamented the "good old days" when there was "more consensus" on them. Of course, in those good old days, there were still other issues that sharply divided people -- such as slavery, for example. And before slavery became a hot-button "issue", the importation of new slaves. And before the importation of new slaves was an issue, secession from England was an issue. And so forth, and so on. There were never any "good old days" when people agreed on how to eat the proverbial boiled egg properly. Even Thucydides, in the 5th century BC, remarked how voters in a democracy are always at each other's throats over popular -- but secondary -- issues.
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Old 09-16-2008, 02:57 AM
 
Location: Central CT, sometimes NH.
3,255 posts, read 4,908,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mackinac81 View Post
I know. That's partly what prompted my thread.



I wonder if the rise of Rush and Clinton, both boomers, helped bring those old sixties divisions back to life...(?)
I can't believe that anyone would take what Rush Limbaugh says seriously but I know they do. He is an entertainer yet his type of entertainment is dangerous because it stirs up the discontent of many people who are not receiving what they believe to be their fair share of the American Dream. I personally find entertainers like Rush go against my own family values.

Traditionally the American Dream was to own your own home, be able to provide for your family, have your children receive a decent education, take a modest annual vacation, and own a car. Now what it stands for I don't know. I believe many people believe it means living on par with a rock star, sports celebrity, or some other famous person they see living a lavish lifestyle on television. That's the problem IMHO since chasing the glitter of wealth will always leave someone wanting for more.

This leaves those who believe that is what is necessary to be happy, have made it in America, or having received their just rewards feeling they are being cheated by our government, big business, discriminatory treatment, etc.

The only hope for improvement would be a cultural change that casts off pop culture and conspicuous consumption.
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Old 09-16-2008, 03:37 AM
 
36 posts, read 140,170 times
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1. Do you think this division in America is overblown, or is there real deep seated animosity among us?

I don't think the division is overblown, but rather is quite real. Yes, there is a very deep seated animosity among the American people.

2. Is this the most divisive era you've seen in your lifetimes? I'd especially like responses from people who lived through the 60s

I think the divisiveness has grown since the '60s, slowly but surely grown. When it will implode I don't know, but as time marches on the issues that divide us create deeper and deeper rifts.

3. When and how did this division come about, and what, if anything, can resolve it?

There have been some excellent comments about this. I agree that the anonomity of the Internet fuels the fire, but it is an outlet that reacts to the censoring of expression we have lived through in the past decade. The "Politically Correct" movement served only to frustrate and has been so abused that sensible discourse is precluded.
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Old 09-16-2008, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA
2,290 posts, read 4,946,710 times
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No doubt Americans are a seriously (and unnecessarily) divided people. Why? In my opinion, the tectonic plates of economics are shifting and there is quickly developing a new order of wealth, power and influence.

Americans, especially over the last 50 years, got addicted to the "crack" of the American dream. And today, through mismanagement, failure, dysfunction, immorality, greed and corruption, the American dream crackpipe is being taken away and we cannot function without it.

We allow ourselves to be distracted by issues like race, religion, abortion, etc. And we pay little or no attention to the ideas and innovation that could raise the tide for all boats--and bring us together--while concentrating on the petty issues that we hope will sink the other guys' ship.

We want to be divided because we've been bamboozled into believing that it will benefit us. And this is extremely dangerous for a nation.
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Old 09-16-2008, 08:36 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
5,409 posts, read 9,558,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by backfist View Post

We want to be divided because we've been bamboozled into believing that it will benefit us. And this is extremely dangerous for a nation.
On a related note, many people believe that economics and our existence is a zero-sum game.
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Old 09-16-2008, 03:11 PM
 
3,612 posts, read 4,038,124 times
Reputation: 2113
Default Diminishing standard of living

Quote:
Originally Posted by backfist View Post
Americans, especially over the last 50 years, got addicted to the "crack" of the American dream. And today, through mismanagement, failure, dysfunction, immorality, greed and corruption, the American dream crackpipe is being taken away and we cannot function without it.
Interesting choice of words, Iíve havenít heard the situation described this way before.

Hereís an additional thought to consider, the productivity gains that economist point to as evidence of a strong foundation to the American economy are in large part fake. Most anyone in corporate America, if pressed, will tell you how worker productivity over the last few years has been misrepresented to paint a rosier picture to stock holders. In my investigations Iíve found this to be the case in industries ranging from insurance to telecommunications. Hence todayís news of AIGís meltdown comes as no surprise to me.
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:07 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,960 posts, read 98,795,031 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niners fan View Post
Interesting but the territories of 1860 would have voted for Lincoln, siding with the Union.

So only the South would have stuck out as an anomaly and the rest of the map would have been blue except for the thin swath of border states.

Nowadays, the only way to get a map as unified as an 1860 map that showed the territories as supporting the Union would be a situation like 1984 where Reagan won in a landslide. I think that would only happen in for a Republican incumbent seeking a second term. I can't ever see a Democrat carrying the entire plains and inland Western states. If true, that in itself says something about the division in the country although I can't quite put my finger on what it means!
Not all the territories would have voted for Lincoln. Certainly not Kansas, probably not New Mexico. Ever hear of the battle of Raton Pass? The rebs were fighting the yanks on the New Mexico/Colorado border.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xavierob82 View Post
There is only one solution: the eventual secession of the blue states, perhaps forming some sort of partnership government with Canada. Especially if Obama loses in November.
This "red state/blue state" stuff is not entirely monolithic. Colorado is a "red". However, in the 28 yrs I have lived here, we have had 3 Democratic and one Republican governor. We currently have a Democratic senator, 4 of 7 representatives to Congress are Democrats, and the Democrats control both houses of the state legislature. Likewise, Indiana has a Democratic senator, and 5 of 9 reps to congress are Dems.
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Old 09-18-2008, 12:33 AM
 
Location: Ohio
17,998 posts, read 13,238,246 times
Reputation: 13781
Quote:
Originally Posted by mackinac81 View Post
I was going to post this in the politics forum, but decided I'd get better answer here. First here are my observations.

As a history student I can think of only three periods when Americans were this divided:

1) The Civil War era
2) 1960s/Vietnam and
3) Today.
America was not divided during the 1960s. The "counter-culture" was a very small percentage of society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mackinac81 View Post
I'm stunned at the sheer hatred that liberals and conservatives have for each other. It's one thing to disagree, even strongly, but it's more than that--almost like a civil war without the guns.
Can't disagree with you there. I think it does rise to the level of hatred. Part of the problem is political correctness. There can be no meaningful dialog.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mackinac81 View Post
My question to you all is...

1. Do you think this division in America is overblown, or is there real deep seated animosity among us?
It's really there and it will only get worse over time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mackinac81 View Post
2. Is this the most divisive era you've seen in your lifetimes? I'd especially like responses from people who lived through the 60s
This is definitely the most divisive era. During the Nixon, Ford, Carter and the early part of the Reagan Administrations at least people could discuss things civilly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mackinac81 View Post
3. When and how did this division come about, and what, if anything, can resolve it?
Once political correctness set in, it was pretty much the Beginning of the End. The Information Loop is closed too, and because it is, people aren't going to switch sides on any issue.
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Old 09-18-2008, 12:37 AM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,402,860 times
Reputation: 47449
now now dont be too harsh. there is not more division in america than there was when marie antionette was having such a good time in versailles and told the starving people to eat cake (but of course not hers) of course then they marched up the street and stuff happened. ours wont be violent but its guna get ugly. we are getting there we are marching up the road right bout now.
obama 08
DOD is going to go on a diet very soon.
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