U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 09-21-2008, 02:56 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
5,217 posts, read 4,122,372 times
Reputation: 908

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native View Post
First of all, I'm not a "she". My proposal/debate was clearly stated originally when I mentioned that private schools are far superior in standards compared to the public system ... and there are valid reasons for that. Like any other business, private schools can compete with each other for better results.
The problem I have with your statements is that you have no evidence, facts or statistics to back that up. I've pointed to not one, but two seperate studies from two different sources that shows that the quality of education is not any better in a private school than it is in a public school. Rather than saying that it is so you need to back it up with solid proof of such claims, otherwise saying it is so does not make it so.

Furthermore, parents who send their kids to the private schools tend to be more involved in what's going on inside the schools. Part of that is because they are rightfully concerned, and the other reason is money. Like it or not, money is a motivator ... and when you're paying for tuition, books, and supplies out of your own pocket, that alone motivates you to see to it that you're getting the most bang for your buck ... or in this case, see that your children are getting the best education that your money can buy.

First of all those children that go to private school are already finanical well off to begin with. Clearly school performance runs along socia economic lines and it is proven... children from a lower socio economic status tend to be outperformed by those of higher socio economic status. To prove that point, 1 of the two studies I pointed to looked at socio economics in their results and the conclusion was that those of lower socio economic standing did not peform any better in a private school system than they did in a public school system.
So your assumption that I don't have the children's best interest in mind is incorrect. I have brought out numerous reasons why the public system has failed ... You have offered no hard proof with statistics or supporting evidence.
and I've even related my own experiences comparing the public & private schools that I attended when I was young. What upsets me is that people with children in the public schools seem to think that everybody else should be obligated to pay. You really need to understand how burdening this is to those who don't have kids. Parents are eligible for tax credits, and many other types of assistance. I'm paying taxes for everybody else, but I receive NO tax credits, and NO assistance. Frankly, I don't want, nor expect these types of things ... but nobody else should either just because they have children.

First.. the tax credit is simpy a write off on a line in the tax form. The government is not handing us that money. I do not get a check at the end of the year from the government for having a child. The only way I get a check is if i overpaid in taxes (LOL .. which doesn't happen for me because i'm self employed anyway) after taking all the deductions such as interest on a mortgage etc. If you want tax credits or tax deductions you need to take your income and invest it , etc.. . Renters do not recieve any tax credits for renting, but homeowners do for the interest they pay on their mortgage. The fact that you have no deductions to take is not hte fault of mine. If you work a 9-5 job you most likely do not have many deductions (unless you own property) . If you're self employed you get deductions for many things (but no matter..self employed pay double in taxes anyway). As for not having children.. you elected not to have kids, so you don't get the credit.. just as a renter elected not to buy so they don't get the credit for a portion of thier rent (unless they happen to be self employed). Parents do not have children simply for the write off..

What you have to understand, is that parents of children are raising the future of this nation.. the next set of Dr's , lawyers, hairdressers.. etc etc etc. It is a contribution to society, that IMO is well worth getting a deduction on your tax line of a $1,000.. especially when you take into account that a parent will pay far more than that to support that child .

I will admit that I overlooked one of your postings about how much money you pay in property taxes. I knew that New York had higher taxes than Arizona ... but I went back & read that your tax bill is over $7,000 a year. That's absolutely outrageous! With that in mind, I completely understand why you would have a difficult time affording private school ... but at the same time, I think you're getting ripped off. Property taxes here are much lower, but even $1,100 per year just for schools is ridiculous enough.

High taxes are problem here, but for reasons I've outlined in my posts. But lets go back to that whole scenario.. my savings are $4500 if we did away w/ taxes and I'd have to make up abut $10.500 a year to send my kid to a private school.. now imagine that same tag in your area where a family won't have to pay $1100 but would have to come up with over $14K to send their kid to private school. That is impossible.

Thomas Jefferson, one of our founding fathers, recognized the need for publicly funded education back in 1779. The fact that all of our children are educated is one of the reasons we are what we are in the world today and why we have one of the best countries in the world. If you take away the taxes that you or an elderly person who no longer has kids in school pay, you shift that burden , which would be significant, onto families raising kids.. and schools will be severely underfunded. Underfunded schools can and will lead to a poorer quality of education.. and with that the nation will decline into illiterate undereducated population. And THAT does not benefit anyone.. children or no children.


What would you think of this idea: keep the system public on a local level only, but only those with kids who USE the public schools should pay the taxes. Also, keep the system open to charitable donations for those who want to contribute money, time, or supplies to the schools. In your case, that means your tax bill would remain virtually unchanged ... but those without kids wouldn't be obligated to pay unless they wanted to.


For reasons I've stated above this will not work.. schools will be underfunded.. because they will have to raise taxes possibly squeezing families out of their home to make up the difference. $1100/ year is not much at all to pay for education.. so what would you, if anything contribute. You may not think your amount would be impacting.. but it would.. times what you wouldn't be paying by the total population of people who's kids are either no longer in school or are childless and you have underfunded schools which leads to inadequate education.

I can't make you see the value that education has for you wether you have children or not if you just can't see it. Fortunately others see the wisdom in a publicly funded school system.

Call me skeptical.. but I do not believe that "charity" alone will sustain the school system.. Your $1100 a year is needed otherwise it would be less.. and without that amount the kids education will be harmed.. and that hurts everyone.


Not necessarily an anti CHILD bias ... just an anti tax bias. When a good share of the savings I accumulate during the year has to be blown on taxes to support people who aren't my responsibility ... and when our tax dollars are being used for all these bailouts of failed financial firms, and those who didn't take responsibility for their careless actions, I really have more of an anti STUPIDITY bias.
The gov't bail out is completey different from education taxes in your property tax. Whether you want to believe it or not, you do benefit from the school tax and the public school system. The only ones benefiting from the gov't bailouts are wall street tycoons! With that comparison you are comparing apples and oranges..

And that bail out has a far significant efffect to you and everyone else than does your property tax bill..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-21-2008, 03:17 PM
 
19,183 posts, read 27,783,966 times
Reputation: 4000
Since there's been some non-precise use of the terms, charter and magnet schools are a part of the public school system. Charter schools may focus on a particular academic area (math, arts, whatever) and often have outside financial support above and beyond their normal public funding, but they are typically assigned a district and must accept at least nearly all the students who both live in that district and apply to the school. Magnet schools are selective schools. They too may receive supplemental funding, but they serve larger districts and can choose to admit those applicants that they want and reject everyone else.

There are essentially just two types of private schools. Better than 90% of all private schools are parochial schools, the large majority being Roman Catholic. The remainder are independent schools. All private schools are selective. They are under no obligation to admit anyone. There are also a few proprietary schools. These are for-profit schools that attempt to operate on a public school basis using a free-market model. As a group, they have been spectacular failures.

A few other notes...

There is little difference between the "performance" of private and public schools. When corrected for demographic differences, neither group can claim to have any significant advantage over the other. A private school located next door to a crappy, drug-infested, gang-oriented public school will merely be a crappy, drug-infested, gang-oriented private school.

The so-called voucher movement began as (and often continues to be) nothing more than a means to sap tax dollars into support for private, usually religious, educational decisions that have already been made. When the Milwaukee voucher system opened for example, more than 90% of the students participating in it had never spent so much as a single day enrolled in the public school system.

Private schools as a group do not offer the range of specialized support services that public schools do in terms of handicapped, disadvantaged, or even talented students. Public schools are accountable to elected local school boards. Private schools are accountable to no one. Public schools tend toward diversity in student body. Private schools tend toward homogeneity. Public schools must comply with public laws concerning education, such as those related to discipline and discrimination. Private schools are exempt from many such laws. There are established minimum requirements that must initially and continuously be met to be hired and retained as a teacher in any public school system. Private schools can hire and retain anyone they want, based on any criteria that they want.

Bottom line: There are some great private schools, some good private schools, and some pretty worthless private schools, and the same holds true in public school systems.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-21-2008, 03:42 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
5,217 posts, read 4,122,372 times
Reputation: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Since there's been some non-precise use of the terms, charter and magnet schools are a part of the public school system. Charter schools may focus on a particular academic area (math, arts, whatever) and often have outside financial support above and beyond their normal public funding, but they are typically assigned a district and must accept at least nearly all the students who both live in that district and apply to the school. Magnet schools are selective schools. They too may receive supplemental funding, but they serve larger districts and can choose to admit those applicants that they want and reject everyone else.

There are essentially just two types of private schools. Better than 90% of all private schools are parochial schools, the large majority being Roman Catholic. The remainder are independent schools. All private schools are selective. They are under no obligation to admit anyone. There are also a few proprietary schools. These are for-profit schools that attempt to operate on a public school basis using a free-market model. As a group, they have been spectacular failures.

A few other notes...

There is little difference between the "performance" of private and public schools. When corrected for demographic differences, neither group can claim to have any significant advantage over the other. A private school located next door to a crappy, drug-infested, gang-oriented public school will merely be a crappy, drug-infested, gang-oriented private school.

The so-called voucher movement began as (and often continues to be) nothing more than a means to sap tax dollars into support for private, usually religious, educational decisions that have already been made. When the Milwaukee voucher system opened for example, more than 90% of the students participating in it had never spent so much as a single day enrolled in the public school system.

Private schools as a group do not offer the range of specialized support services that public schools do in terms of handicapped, disadvantaged, or even talented students. Public schools are accountable to elected local school boards. Private schools are accountable to no one. Public schools tend toward diversity in student body. Private schools tend toward homogeneity. Public schools must comply with public laws concerning education, such as those related to discipline and discrimination. Private schools are exempt from many such laws. There are established minimum requirements that must initially and continuously be met to be hired and retained as a teacher in any public school system. Private schools can hire and retain anyone they want, based on any criteria that they want.

Bottom line: There are some great private schools, some good private schools, and some pretty worthless private schools, and the same holds true in public school systems.
Excellent post (as always),

As it turns out.. I did go to a "charter" school for the performing arts . I took all my core subjects at my HS half the day and my Arts classes at Boces Cultural Arts Center.. all paid for through my public school education.

And there are vocational charter schools as well (all Boces, btw) for specialty areas o study like auto mechanics, hairdressers etc. My particular district allowed us to go into the specialized area in Junior/Senior year..

However.. my core classes were all taken at my public school.. and I went to that charter school because I had a specific area of interest.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-21-2008, 04:34 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
5,217 posts, read 4,122,372 times
Reputation: 908
Actually.. Boces is not neccesarily a charter school.. here is informational link on what BOCES is About Nassau BOCES (http://www.nassauboces.org/about/ - broken link)

To solve this problem, the State Legislature created the BOCES — Boards of Cooperative Educational Services — to encourage local school districts to pool their resources. The BOCES offer services and programs that individual school districts can't operate as efficiently or cost-effectively. Examples include specialized schools for severely disabled children, a regional computer-services center, and shared professional training programs for teachers.

Funding comes from the 56 local districts. Each pays a proportional share of Nassau BOCES' administrative costs, and local school boards vote on the administrative budget each spring. In addition, each district decides which Nassau BOCES services it needs and then pays a share of the cost of those services. As an incentive to cooperate and share resources, New York State gives local school districts BOCES aid monies to partially reimburse them for BOCES services and administrative costs.

This is actually a great idea for specialized area of study , should a student want and still funded through public education.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-21-2008, 05:17 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,564,739 times
Reputation: 47459
Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
Do you have the stats on this.. crimes in schools to display. Saying it doesnt make it so.. also "unreported" can not be proven and is therefore speculation and heresay.

Again.. crimes in schools all depends on where the school is located and what the demogrpahic and economic makeup of the neighborhood sthat make up the school are.
wheres the proof?
if i dont have the DNA and video it never happened?
assume my teacher friends and family are liars? i dont think so.
if there is not a police report it didn't happen?
just like my friends music shop was not a burglary and theft of 10 keyboards, it was a false alarm. read the report says it right there.
there was no rape at the school, it was a personal incident.
it was a "misunderstanding" with a group of 16 year olds in a stair well with a teacher that stayed over too long to work on papers. she "knew" her own students and "knew" if a few of them were present they would not allow any harm to come to her.
we of the community are simply "confused"
the emporers new cloths
voucher sooner the better.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-21-2008, 05:32 PM
 
Location: The Chatterdome in La La Land, CaliFUNia
38,803 posts, read 19,610,800 times
Reputation: 35847
I would support school vouchers on a national scale since the monopoly on public education only hurts the poor who are forced to remain in a low performing school district because the parents cannot afford private education alternatives. Also, for those who are fortunate enough to afford private education, why should they have to pay for both the private school tuition and the taxes for public schools? Vouchers is all about giving the parents a choice.

Too many public school districts are nothing but bloated. mismanaged beaucracies that are not accountable to parents(LAUSD is a prime example). Why are my public school teacher friends having to pay for supplies out of their own pockets? Where are all the public education funds going if students are lacking supplies and teachers are underpaid? I don't know about completely abolishing our public education system, but I do know that it needs a major overhaul!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-21-2008, 05:33 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
5,217 posts, read 4,122,372 times
Reputation: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
wheres the proof?
if i dont have the DNA and video it never happened?
assume my teacher friends and family are liars? i dont think so.
if there is not a police report it didn't happen?
just like my friends music shop was not a burglary and theft of 10 keyboards, it was a false alarm. read the report says it right there.
there was no rape at the school, it was a personal incident.
it was a "misunderstanding" with a group of 16 year olds in a stair well with a teacher that stayed over too long to work on papers. she "knew" her own students and "knew" if a few of them were present they would not allow any harm to come to her.
we of the community are simply "confused"
the emporers new cloths
voucher sooner the better.
I say it again.. depends onwhere the school district is and the make up of the student population.

Violence in schools has nothign to do with wehter it's public or private. It has to do with the students that go to the school and what they are taught at home about what is right and what is wrong..

Often times the socio economic schools and inner city schools with a poorer population tend to have students that behave in such a manner.. Do you really think putting them into a "private" school is going to do anything to chagne the attitude that is taught at home.

Its not the schools job to teacch children what is right or wrong.. it's the parents job.. if they don't get it at home it doesn't matter what school they go to ..they will still be what they are and behave the way they behave.

Again.. do you have the numbers and stats to prove your statements.. do you have a comparable of private schools vs. public school violence.

I've already shown that academic performance was no different between private and public based on two seperate and recent studies. I've backed up what I'm saying with statistics and facts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-21-2008, 05:37 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
5,217 posts, read 4,122,372 times
Reputation: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by msconnie73 View Post
I would support school vouchers on a national scale since the monopoly on public education only hurts the poor who are forced to remain in a low performing school district because the parents cannot afford private education alternatives. Also, for those who are fortunate enough to afford private education, why should they have to pay for both the private school tuition and the taxes for public schools? Vouchers is all about giving the parents a choice.

Too many public school districts are nothing but bloated. mismanaged beaucracies that are not accountable to parents(LAUSD is a prime example). Why are my public school teacher friends having to pay for supplies out of their own pockets? Where are all the public education funds going if students are lacking supplies and teachers are underpaid? I don't know about completely abolishing our public education system, but I do know that it needs a major overhaul!
Overhaul.. yes.. private education. NO. The poor will benefit from "scholarships" the rich will be able to afford private schools.. and then what happens to the middle class children.. the larger percentage of the population who can not afford the tuition, yet make too much money for scholarships? They will be stuck in a then underfunded public school system that would be sub par.

The problem is that poor school performance and problems depends onwhere you are located.. so what needs to happen to fix your schools may not need to happen to fix schools in other locations.

I'm not opposed to a voucher program on a local level if that solution works best for your public school system and it's problems.. but it shouldnt be a blanket and national thing.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-21-2008, 08:27 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,564,739 times
Reputation: 47459
Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
I say it again.. depends onwhere the school district is and the make up of the student population.

Violence in schools has nothign to do with wehter it's public or private. It has to do with the students that go to the school and what they are taught at home about what is right and what is wrong..

Often times the socio economic schools and inner city schools with a poorer population tend to have students that behave in such a manner.. Do you really think putting them into a "private" school is going to do anything to chagne the attitude that is taught at home.

Its not the schools job to teacch children what is right or wrong.. it's the parents job.. if they don't get it at home it doesn't matter what school they go to ..they will still be what they are and behave the way they behave.

Again.. do you have the numbers and stats to prove your statements.. do you have a comparable of private schools vs. public school violence.

I've already shown that academic performance was no different between private and public based on two seperate and recent studies. I've backed up what I'm saying with statistics and facts.
here you go lots of stuff on google but you know when you are not looking for stuff you don't wana hear in the 1st place, its hard to find. when i think of the millions that the teachers union here has spent to keep the public school system, takes my breath away. food for thought. if 1/2 of what i said to you is true, and that can happen to an adult authority figure, can you imagine what it is like for a 12 year old? i can---- been there done that. riddle of the day, why is the welfare department here loaded with credentialed teachers, i mean welfare dept is such a fun place so very positive, they tore themselves away from public school system - whats up with that? need more facts more google. connect the dots? im on it.




School Violence: A Problem or Not? - Private Schools

http://safety.lovetoknow.com/School_...rivate_Schools

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/crimeind...ndicators2007/

Last edited by Huckleberry3911948; 09-21-2008 at 08:45 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-21-2008, 09:02 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
5,217 posts, read 4,122,372 times
Reputation: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
here you go lots of stuff on google but you know when you are not looking for stuff you don't wana hear in the 1st place, its hard to find. when i think of the millions that the teachers union here has spent to keep the public school system, takes my breath away. food for thought. if 1/2 of what i said to you is true, and that can happen to an adult authority figure, can you imagine what it is like for a 12 year old? i can---- been there done that. riddle of the day, why is the welfare department here loaded with credentialed teachers, i mean welfare dept is such a fun place so very positive, they tore themselves away from public school system - whats up with that? need more facts more google. connect the dots? im on it.




School Violence: A Problem or Not? - Private Schools

School Safety Policies in Private Schools - LoveToKnow Safety

Indicators of School Crime and Safety: 2007 - Executive Summary
K good.. so now you've actually given us some information to support your statements.. thank you for that.

I wonder what schools were done in the study.. inner city, rural or suburban and where they were or the socio economic make up of such school.

Perhaps the answer is a stronger code of conduct for public school systems and school uniforms.. also criminilizing violent behavior in school and putting those kids in juvenlie halls.. rather than revamp the school system, start privitizing public schools , the bad students need to be removed and placed elsewhere (like juvy hall) rather than vice versa.

Still do not feel that privitizing schools are the answers.. nor are vouchers for every area or every SD.. again.. really depends on where the school is.. this is particularly a problem in poorer neighborhoods.

But.. how do you explain that while the fear of violence is more prevelant in public schools.. why is private schools performance no better than public schools? The studies found that those in lower income houses had no better grades in private school than they did in public school.. which speaks to the impact of family and home life on the performance and perhaps behavior of the student.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top