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Old 10-17-2008, 09:30 AM
 
464 posts, read 1,479,475 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rathagos View Post
I believe it is a choice, enacted out of a desire to free oneself of a bad situation (sub-conscious) where an individual knows a person or family member would disapprove, and would break relations based on homosexual behavior; or, to draw attention (positive or negative) where the individual otherwise has lived a life without the desired attention... "look at me... look at me.. look at me!!"

Religion, in my opinion, plays no role in this whatsoever. There was homosexuality before Christianity. Therefore, to try to put it into religous context holds no water.

I have heard the argument that there are animals that conduct in homosexual activities. Just out of curiosity, what are they? And what behavior do they demonstrate through homosexuality? Is it because they are attracted to the same sex of species? I know dogs that will "hump" other dogs, but that does not portray a transferrence of affection, it's a domination behavior. Since there are only a handful of species on Earth, to my knowledge, that have sex for the sake of "pleasure" and not "reproduction", all these other animals do not partake of homosexual behaviors for the attractive reasons that humans do. Unless it has been discovered, and I'm not aware - it very well may have been, that dolphins, or primates engage in homosexual activity, that argument also holds no water to me.

I have heard the argument that a series of experiments was done with male rats where they were segregated as a society to only male rats. After a period of time, the rats started trying to copulate with each other. I see two points to this. First, look at our own jail system. When you put an entirely male population together, they also adopt a behavior of homosexuality, even when such behavior was not demonstrated on the world they lived before going to jail/prison. Secondly, Abraham Maslow, in a paper wrote out the "Theory of Hierarchy" in 1943. He soon after ammended the paper so that at the bottom of the pyramid, at the physiological level - the basic level of requirements needed for an individual to survive, listed: air, water, food, and sex. As a basic need, a species either consciously or subconsciously needs to have sex. And it has been documented that there have been species that have resulted either in asexuality or where through nature, they change from female to male (or reverse). If sex is a primal instinct, an physiological need for survival, then when no women are present, the male may resort to fulfilling that need in any environment friendly or hostile.

But, since out in the open world, there are plenty of females, there is no physiological drive for male to male copulation. Therefore, male-to-male attraction becomes a deviance - a choice.

It has also been brought up that years ago, Greeks often considered having sex with boys the ultimate in sharing affection and status. But, again, that proves that it was a chosen behavior, not a biological one.

People cite studies done, scientific or medical, that point to the fact that homosexuality is nature versus nurture. If this was truly a fact, as the studies try to indicate, this discussion thread wouldn't even exist. No one is debating if 2+2=4. That is a proven. No one is debating whether there are actually male and females of a species. That is a proven. If homosexuality was a biological attribute, not a choice (conscious or unconscious), then this debate would not be happening.

For all those reasons above, I will stand by my opinion that homosexuality is a choice (whether from the conscious or sub-conscious), and not a result of biology. But I am open to fact or other persuasive argument.
Heres some good articles on the topic...especially the 4th one down : Search Answers in Genesis
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Old 10-17-2008, 09:35 AM
 
Location: West Texas
2,441 posts, read 5,246,318 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HowDeDo View Post
But i havent replied 'with only my religion' and in fact, sometimes i havent even brought up God when showing the danger and deviant behaviour behind practicing homosexuality. Im glad you dont believe in the tooth fairy to elves stories ...but you are able to recognize design and engineering I would assume. If you a interested in the weightier issues of life and if your Will allows, then take a look at the razor edge precise parameters of design and engineering to our personal Universe . Any open minded rational person who doesnt have an apriori-philosophical bias and ulterior motives , would agree it wasnt designed by materials and raw chemicals left over from a gigantic explosion . Are you ok for a personal moral Theistic Creator existing , or, would this offer some rather difficult implications to your life ? By the way, your chosen way of Humanism is a religion also. In fact, we all have some sort of 'a religion' (generic sense) we follow in life.
Huh?!?!

There's absolutely no logic in this at all. Aside from it being completely off-topic, there's no substance. This isn't a personal attack at you, Howdedo, it's a question as to the validity of any argument you might be trying to present.

As I said in my post, homosexuality pre-dates modern Christianity. In fact, it probably predates most modern religions. So, to put a religious argument against it makes no sense. Also, danger and deviant behavior have nothing to do with a natural instinct or desire. Although I'm against homosexuality being considered a "biological" symptom, children inherently reach towards a hot burner on a stove. They certainly, I would hope, have never seen anyone reach towards the hot stove with a hand. That would be considered a dangerous behavior, but is certainly not a learned one.
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Old 10-17-2008, 09:39 AM
 
Location: West Texas
2,441 posts, read 5,246,318 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HowDeDo View Post
Heres some good articles on the topic...especially the 4th one down : Search Answers in Genesis
You really have to stop with religion. There's no room for it in this argument whatsoever. You can't "prove" a religion. In fact, no religion, as I've stated in other threads, has ever stood the test of time. Every pantheon or past religion (Norse, Greek, Roman, Aztec, Mayan, Egyptian) has fallen to "modern" religions (Judaism, Islam, Christianity). And, it may be only a matter of time before any or all of these fall. To think otherwise is ignorant. I submit that any of the followers of the first religions I mentioned were as fervant as you are about yours. If told their religions were going to collapse, they would have similar responses as you.

But, again, that's a digression. Religion is not provable through any scientific method; therefore, is not a valid argument to use in a nurture versus nature argument, such as this one.
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Old 10-17-2008, 09:49 AM
 
464 posts, read 1,479,475 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laysayfair View Post
I'm not a humanist. You assume too much and are way off topic. When you bring God into it you end rational discussion, as you just have.
If not an atheist/humanist , what are you then ? When i bring a personal Theistic Creator (God) into a discussion on morality , it is quite rational and relevant . You cant get morality from materialism , for... how do materials like dirt, rocks, and gas give (non-material) morality, abstract thinking, reasoning, rationalizing, or love ? Further, how does materialism provide for the Moral Law which is inscribed into the hearts of all people ? Its not that 'im way off topic' so much as God being a fly in the ointment to one wanting to choose how he lives his life in complete autonomy so virtually anything he desires to engage in , is permissable for him/her. This is why people want to run God out of town, use rhetoric in saying a Creator is irrational, saying its just ones opinion when theres empirical proof of a highly personal Designer/Creator, and the plethera of other excuses people come up because it doesnt coincide with ones desired M.O. Isnt God a kill-joy,eh ?!
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Old 10-17-2008, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Aiken S.C
765 posts, read 1,680,876 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HowDeDo View Post
Im pleased to see you can quote a few bible verses. However, the Bible nor God requires Christians to be tolerant of wrong lifestyles and sexual immorality. In fact, the Bible says we should expose them while trying to make people see the error of their poor choices . It is true Jesus died for everyone incl. the homosexual...which is why everyone incl. the homosexual needs to apply the substititionary death of Christ toward oneself and turn from their pattern of lifestyle sin . It depends on two things : First that youre willing to turn from your sin and depend on the free gift of Christ thru his atonement on your behalf, then secondly, to rely on Gods power and wisdom to help you stay on the right track thru making your life a sacrifice for him . God has provided many sources for you to get the wisdom from professionally trained counsellors in homosexuality and he is willing to give you the power to overcome . You already know instrinsically that running to the arms of another man isnt correct or healthy for you ; that should be reserved for God alone. It is now your choice to either make a definitive move to get beyond homosexuality , or, to keep on suppressing your moral conscience that it is wrong and to keep seeking others to support you who think its great or who are engulfed in apathy and could care less. Thank you, and i hope you will choose the former method. Regards.
First thing i am a straight male and a christian and by reading the things you post leads me to believe that you need to read what christ said... i doubt that you even bother with gods word and just let someone else tell you what to believe. You have no concept whatsoever in christs teachings. Do you read the book? Do you think about it after or do you just rely on brother so and so to do it for you?
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Old 10-17-2008, 10:37 AM
 
Location: West Texas
2,441 posts, read 5,246,318 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HowDeDo View Post
Isnt God a kill-joy,eh ?!
Nope. Just people that use Him when they have no rational, intelligent, logical points to make.
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Old 10-17-2008, 03:05 PM
 
1,597 posts, read 1,579,814 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HowDeDo View Post
Thanks for your responses. The act of making love is also a physical act and when it touches fecal matter in the rearend , fecal matter becomes part of the love making process. I know if you give it a try, youll agree with me . As for the rest of your answers, they are only your opinion which is based not on objectivity but rather an apriori-philosophical bias which helps justify what you want to do regardless. As for the final response..you do have a sickness im afraid but until you realize that and want to get help to overcome it, youll seek ways and people to justify your lifestyle which youve become well acquainted with that is offering some degree of comfort and satisfaction. Everyone at the center of their heart, instinctively knows the acts of homosexuality are wrong but the nature of mankind is such that we suppress what we know is wrong so we can be the ultimate Decider . Regards.
No, I don't have a sickness. Enough said.

Ta ta.

Oh, do me a favor.....get some help for yourself. You clearly need it more than any gay or lesbian. I've never ever once in my life thought that when two men were making love that they were making love to fecal matter. I honestly can't get over your vulgar, twisted mind that would make you think or say something like that. That's a flat-out dangerous, perverted, and twisted way to think about love, dude. It's the kind of thinking that causes people to think love and sex are dirty, shameful things. But making love to someone is about expressing their emotions for the other person in a way that encompasses the WHOLE of the other person....heart, soul, and mind - and yes, body too. It's truly no wonder you are no longer married. You probably grossed out your wife when you told her you were depositing something within her that mingled with a bit of urine on its way out, and that she was therefore making love to urine. You know, if I were to ever have children, I'd want to keep them as far away from you as possible, because you'd be filling their heads with dangerous thought processes. Get to a shrink as soon as you can. Truly. You need to learn what love is really all about.

Last edited by aquila; 10-17-2008 at 03:16 PM..
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Old 10-17-2008, 03:12 PM
 
Location: California
11,425 posts, read 16,662,632 times
Reputation: 12447
Folks want proof of the bible and of Gods existence but what about any proof that a person is born Gay, there is no proof what so ever and there won't be, you may get some scientists to theorize about it but thatís about the best that will happen, you cannot diagnose the thoughts in a brain, if you could they could tell anything about who a person is or will be, we cant' tell if a person is born gay anymore than we can tell if a person is born a serial killer.
There is just no rational reason why a person would be born Gay, it goes against nature and the reason for there being a man and woman.
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Old 10-17-2008, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Aiken S.C
765 posts, read 1,680,876 times
Reputation: 388
The point i was trying to make is nowhere in the Bible does Jesus ever preach hate against anyone. and when someone points a finger there is always 3 pointing back at you.
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Old 10-17-2008, 07:08 PM
 
1,597 posts, read 1,579,814 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offthefence View Post
By your standards I could call myself Christian, after all the only parts of the bible I disagree with are the Books between and including Genesis and Revelations.
Hold on a second....don't assume I'm positing a definition for what makes one a Christian. I didn't say anything like that. I think you're reading my words the wrong way. By all means I believe a Christian is one who believes in/accepts and follows/practices the teachings of Jesus Christ. However, when I said I don't personally believe Christianity is about following rules and regulations, I was speaking of manmade rules and regulations. That's why I went on to clarify that there are numerous denominations that hold different interpretations of things in the Bible. And that being the case, I refuse to accept one as being more authoritative than another.
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