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Old 09-26-2008, 09:30 AM
 
Location: Montrose, CA
3,031 posts, read 7,878,618 times
Reputation: 1925

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Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Another right-winger in denial? This mess is brought to you lock, stock, and barrel by the party of laissez-faire free-market capitalism -- the people who like to do away with bureaucratic red tape and unleash the great engine of the American economy. Let the boys do whatever they want. Don't peek over their shoulders, and if you do see something that seems out of whack, for God's sake don't do anything about it. That's how we got to where we are today.

Consumers don't have crystal balls. They can't tell what the fallout from every misguided Bushie economic policy is going to be five years down the road. Keep in mind that these borrowers you so despise for their hard work and faith in the American Dream could indeed afford those loans when they were originated, and they could afford them again with but a modicum of debt restructuring -- the same thing we've been extending to foreign governments with debt service problems for decades. All you want to do is point a finger at the other guy and walk away from the problem. There is a larger lesson to be learned here, and you don't want to learn it. It's the same lesson that was learned in the hard times of the Depression and in the good times of the post-WWII era. Now it's the turn of some assorted history-ignorers to learn it, and here it is: Laissez-faire free-market capitalism doesn't work. It never has worked and it never will. The only way to sustain a market economy on a long-run basis is under a regime of managed capitalism...i.e., what extremists call "socialism". That's all that works. Get used to it, and maybe start showing some actual Personal Responsibility® by manning-up and placing the blame where it actually belongs. Greedy consumers, my foot...
Ooh, I'm so far from being a right-winger...you have no idea

So you're saying the guy down the street, who pulled $200k out of his HELOC at the height of the market, has two new cars, a new boat, et cetera...and is now walking away from his house because he's upside down and he no longer wants to pay for it...you're saying he's pure as the driven snow?

I call shenanigans.
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Old 09-26-2008, 09:55 AM
 
19,183 posts, read 27,779,974 times
Reputation: 4000
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuSuSushi View Post
Ooh, I'm so far from being a right-winger...you have no idea
No, I don't. Hence the question mark. "Walks like a duck..." came into play in this particular case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuSuSushi View Post
So you're saying the guy down the street, who pulled $200k out of his HELOC at the height of the market, has two new cars, a new boat, et cetera...and is now walking away from his house because he's upside down and he no longer wants to pay for it...you're saying he's pure as the driven snow? I call shenanigans.
Are you claiming to know any such person, or is this merely an iconic whipping-boy that you can conveniently visualize and then excoriate? How many such people do you imagine that there actually are? What percentage of those with current debt service problems do you imagine that number to be? More briefly put, do you have any argument other than an argument from the outliers to propose?

[As an FYI, to many with their feet on the ground, use of the acronym "HELOC" can tend to mark one as a devotee of some whackjob internet financial guru wannabe. You might want to consider actually typing out the term equity line, or even equity loan, as the case might be.]
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Old 09-26-2008, 10:18 AM
 
Location: Montrose, CA
3,031 posts, read 7,878,618 times
Reputation: 1925
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
No, I don't. Hence the question mark. "Walks like a duck..." came into play in this particular case.


Are you claiming to know any such person, or is this merely an iconic whipping-boy that you can conveniently visualize and then excoriate? How many such people do you imagine that there actually are? What percentage of those with current debt service problems do you imagine that number to be? More briefly put, do you have any argument other than an argument from the outliers to propose?

[As an FYI, to many with their feet on the ground, use of the acronym "HELOC" can tend to mark one as a devotee of some whackjob internet financial guru wannabe. You might want to consider actually typing out the term equity line, or even equity loan, as the case might be.]
So basically you're saying the consumer has no culpability here. Riiight. You can't pin this whole thing on the banks. BOTH sides made bad, bad decisions. And yes, my neighbor down the street did just what I represented here.

When I see someone represented in the news as a "victim" of this whole thing, and the story says they make $40k a year and bought a $400,000 house on an ARM or an interest-only loan, yes I consider them to be part of the problem. They aren't victims, they were just caught by their own greed, and now that greed is costing me and other people who didn't spend frivolously, and didn't go massively into debt for toys, and didn't buy way more house than we could afford by any stretch of the imagination.

Blame the banks all you want, it takes two sides to sign a mortgage contract.
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Old 09-26-2008, 05:33 PM
 
Location: Cloud Cuckoo Land
558 posts, read 707,889 times
Reputation: 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Another right-winger in denial? This mess is brought to you lock, stock, and barrel by the party of laissez-faire free-market capitalism -- the people who like to do away with bureaucratic red tape and unleash the great engine of the American economy. Let the boys do whatever they want. Don't peek over their shoulders, and if you do see something that seems out of whack, for God's sake don't do anything about it. That's how we got to where we are today.

Consumers don't have crystal balls. They can't tell what the fallout from every misguided Bushie economic policy is going to be five years down the road. Keep in mind that these borrowers you so despise for their hard work and faith in the American Dream could indeed afford those loans when they were originated, and they could afford them again with but a modicum of debt restructuring -- the same thing we've been extending to foreign governments with debt service problems for decades. All you want to do is point a finger at the other guy and walk away from the problem. There is a larger lesson to be learned here, and you don't want to learn it. It's the same lesson that was learned in the hard times of the Depression and in the good times of the post-WWII era. Now it's the turn of some assorted history-ignorers to learn it, and here it is: Laissez-faire free-market capitalism doesn't work. It never has worked and it never will. The only way to sustain a market economy on a long-run basis is under a regime of managed capitalism...i.e., what extremists call "socialism". That's all that works. Get used to it, and maybe start showing some actual Personal Responsibility® by manning-up and placing the blame where it actually belongs. Greedy consumers, my foot...
I sincerely hope this thread doesn't continue to degenerate into another one of the Jerry Springer type debates better reserved for the Political forum. Your standoffish, emotional posts are completely in opposition to the rules of the Great Debates forum. The second post of this thread not only answered the OP's question, but it provided a good staging point for an argument for or against laissez-faire capitalism. Any subsequent argument should at least try to address the points mentioned in that post. To do anything less is an injustice to the forum. Emotionally charged posts and trite statements like "capitalism doesn't work" contribute nothing to the discussion unless they're backed with logic or fact while also addressing the points made in the previous posts. Nothing you said addressed anything that wasn't already refuted by the second post.

Admittedly, several of the other posts were also unnecessary.
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Old 09-26-2008, 05:39 PM
NCN
 
Location: NC/SC Border Patrol
21,136 posts, read 21,179,583 times
Reputation: 23168
I don't think anyone is to blame for depressions. The market sometimes oversells and has to make a correction. America is living on too much credit. The young people who are borrowing so much have no caution because things have always been good. This is a learning experience. I just hope I don't have too much more to learn. LOL
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Old 09-26-2008, 07:52 PM
 
Location: Chino, CA
1,458 posts, read 2,902,716 times
Reputation: 546
Did anybody ask... where this "Credit" came from? Don't we all know who really owns US don't we? If there wasn't any available credit... or credit flowing into the system...the financiers wouldn't have anybody to buy their securities... and Mr. Consumer wouldn't have been able to buy anything on credit.

Just a thought.

-chuck22b
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Old 09-26-2008, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Ohio
18,115 posts, read 13,298,762 times
Reputation: 13964
Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostInTheShell View Post
I sincerely hope this thread doesn't continue to degenerate into another one of the Jerry Springer type debates better reserved for the Political forum.
It should be locked since the original premise is patently false, because the OP is ignorant of economics.

The US is not in a depression. It isn't even in a recession yet.

You will know when the US enters a recession when the GDP for a quarter is below 0%, ie the economy contracted.

You will know when the US enters depression when your city starts laying off fire-fighters and police, and reducing hours, when your county does the same and when your state announces that its offices are only gong to be open 16-20 hours a week because no one is working and the state is not collecting income revenues, unemployment revenues, or sales tax revenues, and when the national unemployment rate is 11% and when state unemployment rates are the 16% to 24% range, and on top of that the economy will be contracting at a rate of -4% to -6% growth every quarter.
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Old 09-26-2008, 11:49 PM
 
Location: vagabond
2,631 posts, read 4,839,269 times
Reputation: 1300
whatever we decide to call this mockery of economics, i would agree with susu, that there is blame to be had on both sides of the equation. i know waaaaay too many of those stupid consumers that she was talking about, but it was the greedy bankers and the others in charge that decided to cut the lines and let the ship go wherever it was going to be taken.

i still see more interest in personal wealth by the government officials and the banking industry than i do a humble admission of guilt and a desire to rectify the problem. all of the top executives are whining about losing their yachts. the government is going to bail them out, so they can keep all four of their mansions, and their ridiculous paychecks, while the smaller companies that did business wisely are going to suffer from the public's tightened belts.

but at least we won't lose the giants, you know, the ones that yank the politicians' leashes whenever they stub their toes on their gilded bannisters?

aaron out.
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Old 09-26-2008, 11:59 PM
 
Location: Montana
1,219 posts, read 2,760,971 times
Reputation: 671
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuSuSushi View Post
The greedy consumer is ultimately responsible for this mess. Those of you who signed crazy ARMs or got idiotic interest-only loans on houses you couldn't by any stretch of the imagination afford. Those of you who grabbed all the equity out of your home when the market was at its peak, and bought "toys" with it. Those of you walking away from your houses even though you have the means to pay, because you don't like being upside down. Yes, it's you dummies that are responsible. Sure the banks gave you stupid loans...but nobody put a gun to your head and forced you to sign.

Thanks for nothing!
I don't think blame is a good game...(I'm a poet and don't even know it.) I also believe in personal responsibility.

You do have a point.

Personally I've never looked at my home as an investment, for me it's a place to live. I don't have one of those variable rate or interest only loans either..

I sure see the struggle with others around here trying to sell this or that in desperation lately. It's getting a bit crazy. I figure it's better to get at least something vs. just a rental lease where it all goes down the drain... plus I like doing my own work.

For me I'm happy with my 'lil house and my old truck. I'd sure hate to buy now after all the easy-money folks decided to "invest" in this economy.

But again I'm just one of those "dumb rednecks".
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Old 09-27-2008, 12:10 AM
 
Location: Cloud Cuckoo Land
558 posts, read 707,889 times
Reputation: 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
It should be locked since the original premise is patently false, because the OP is ignorant of economics.

The US is not in a depression. It isn't even in a recession yet.

You will know when the US enters a recession when the GDP for a quarter is below 0%, ie the economy contracted.

You will know when the US enters depression when your city starts laying off fire-fighters and police, and reducing hours, when your county does the same and when your state announces that its offices are only gong to be open 16-20 hours a week because no one is working and the state is not collecting income revenues, unemployment revenues, or sales tax revenues, and when the national unemployment rate is 11% and when state unemployment rates are the 16% to 24% range, and on top of that the economy will be contracting at a rate of -4% to -6% growth every quarter.
Yes, his question was poorly worded. Can we simply agree to answer the question as I reworded it in my first post? If not, maybe a moderator will lock this thread and start a new one with a question worded similar to the one above. With that in mind, I should have worded my second post more carefully.

Last edited by GhostInTheShell; 09-27-2008 at 12:26 AM..
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