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View Poll Results: Would you be able to afford to Educate your child under a fully privatized system?
Yes 40 59.70%
No 27 40.30%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-29-2008, 02:22 PM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 5,056,084 times
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I have several thoughts after reading this thread.

First of all, I am mystified by all those statements to the effect that if hordes of students suddenly came flocking to private schools, that would make the price of private education go down. Why? Do the words "seller's market" ring a bell? That increased demand leads to overproduction and then on to lower prices is true only of mass-produced consumer products; it is virtually never true of the service industry or products that require a substantial labor investment. In the service sector, increased demand has the opposite effect -- that's one of the reasons why the cost of medical care keeps going up, despite there being lots of doctors and lots of sick or "medicalized" people (no, there is no "malpractice crisis"), and it's certainly why the recent obsession with buying real estate led to home prices not going down, but actually growing in an almost geometric progression. Education is a service, and it's extremely labor intensive. Setting up and running a school is exceedingly expensive, and since people like Valley Native, I am sure, would go so far as to revoke educational institutions' non-profit status, their expenses would increase manifold still. Even without the revocation of tax exemptions, the price of private education would go up, not down -- very, very much up.

Second, the privatization of schools would leave no way to make sure that there are even enough seats available for all the children out there (kind of like the situation with day care in big cities today). Thus, even if parents could pay "official" tuition, a child may still be placed on an indefinite waiting list in every school in the 50-mile radius, unless the family could cough up a substantial "gift" -- thus further driving up the price of education.

Third, history demonstrates against privatization. Every country that got to be a major player in modern history did so by, among other things, investing heavily in public education, particularly in math and science programs. (And by the way, private schools, even overall good ones, are notorious for having poor math and science programs.) The United States is the only exception, with a public education system that was never great to begin with, and has been simply abysmal since the 1960's. However, the US' unique ability to attract immigrants from among the ranks of the ambitious has created a happy anomaly, where this country has been able to import competent specialists educated at the expense of other countries' taxpayers, as opposed to cultivating our own. It's been a boon (take comfort, VN), but it is an anomaly, and with the advent of globalization, I'm afraid we are living at the tail end of the H1B bonanza. Soon, we will need to make some fundamental changes to our educational system in order to expand locally grown intellectual and technological elite -- but privatizing education and denying schooling to large swaths of the population is definitely the worst way to deal with the issue.

Fourth, people who get hung up on principles often fail to see the forest for the trees. No matter how Libertarian you are, you have to recognize that our society is still a community; that living as a community has its substantial benefits; and that those benefits have to be publicly funded. Nations where education is fully privatized are mired in illiteracy, poverty, technological backwardness and all that follows, up to and including religious extremism and political unrest. Having an educated populace is what ensures prosperity, a functioning economy and the ability to compete technologically on the world stage. Lower property taxes will not be much of a consolation when the savings get wiped out by a crumbling economy and a deteriorating political situation.

Fifth, privatization has the sinister goal of clericalizing this society. The only schools that will be able to offer "education" substantially cheaper than the mean will be parochial ones, because for various reasons, they have teachers that forgo real wages -- and the more fundamentalist the school, the more it is likely to lower its prices by getting zealots to teach for free and other zealots to subsidize indoctrination. Thus, privatization is nothing but a scheme to get money flowing into the coffers of religious organizations and to make future generations more fundamentalist. Of course, there are certain people in this country who would like nothing more than to see calculus replaced with Bible-thumping since, in the words of the late Turkmen-bashi, "an uneducated populace is easier to govern". And if you think this country can never, never become like Iran, look at some of the pictures of Iran from the 1960's -- women in shorts and t-shirts, etc. Bet they never thought either that it would take only 15 years to force them to wear a chador and ride in the back of the bus. This is not meant as an offense against religious people. Most religious people I know would sooner sell their kidneys than send their children to parochial schools -- but of course, whether that kind of sacrifice is required is up for debate.

Sixth, at least to some extent, this isn't really a debate of who pays for what, but more of a debate as whether people who have children should be punished for it. The argument that poverty is ennobling in and of itself, that having a 50-inch flat-screen and an indoor jacuzzi is somehow unchaste and that all those evil yuppies need to be cut down to size is a moral one, not an economic one. It stems from the deeply-held (and usually religious in origin) suspicion of people who allow themselves "luxuries", and the consequent argument that this society should be refashioned in such a way as to eliminate people's ability to afford them. Naturally, one way to do so is to make child-bearing prohibitively expensive.
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Old 09-29-2008, 02:42 PM
 
Location: Right where I want to be.
4,507 posts, read 8,013,577 times
Reputation: 3332
Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
That's great you donate.. not everyone does. I've already debunked the education via charity idea by simply showing the numbers.

U.S citizens donated 295billion in 2006 to charitable orginizations in total.

And it takes roughly 696Trillion dollars to educate America's children..

BIG descrepency there!

And that 295billion where divided among many orginizations. American Red cross, one of the biggest, recieved a total of 5 billion (I think that's right. it's in another one of my posts either in this thread or the other thread about privitization)
I don't want to quibble with you....but you didn't subtract what people would pay to educate their own children. The total deficit would be considerably less than the 696 Trillion used/wasted now. Don't forget that it wouldn't take the same amount either....private markets are generally cheaper than government services.

For example, I can pay for my own kids so you have to subtract their portion. In addition, I am willing to donate above and beyond that towards a privatized system. I am one of millions who would do the same. You can't debunk the idea based on 'the numbers' when you use wonky math.

I do not donate to public schools now because they are already funded and wasteful to boot. That includes fund raisers and other solicitations for money.
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Old 09-29-2008, 04:33 PM
 
54 posts, read 82,106 times
Reputation: 33
Thumbs up Opinion vs Fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
I have several thoughts after reading this thread.
IMO, this is a quite well written opinion piece. Much better than the cheap personal attacks in some of the posts! Tsk, Tsk this is the Great Debates Forum is it not? However I would say that it contributes nothing to the ongoing discussion except for an insight into the writers world view and political leanings. Statements made as absolute truth such as "lower prices is true only of mass-produced consumer products", "privatization has the sinister goal of clericalizing this society" and the entirety of thought #6 need some support. Some reference cites supporting the opinion would perhaps lead to further discussion and thoughtful consideration of the writers points. But as I indicated at the start of this paragraph, this is simply my opinion.


On the other hand, a few factual reports to foment debate:

HSLDA | Academic Statistics on Homeschooling

"In 1997, a study of 5,402 homeschool students from 1,657 families was released. It was entitled, "Strengths of Their Own: Home Schoolers Across America." The study demonstrated that homeschoolers, on the average, out-performed their counterparts in the public schools by 30 to 37 percentile points in all subjects. A significant finding when analyzing the data for 8th graders was the evidence that homeschoolers who are homeschooled two or more years score substantially higher than students who have been homeschooled one year or less. The new homeschoolers were scoring on the average in the 59th percentile compared to students homeschooled the last two or more years who scored between 86th and 92nd percentile"[/SIZE]

The Results of Home Schooling vs Public Schools

"There can be little doubt that the public school system in many countries, including the United States, is doing a very poor job and many would say is failing. One obvious alternative is to home school your children but do the results of comparing home schooling to public schooling support this as a good choice?"

"As if this were not enough, costs were also lower. On average, government schools spent $6,500 per student each year and private schools spent $3,500. By contrast, parents undertaking home schooling spent about $550 per student each year. This figure for home schooling does not of course take into account the time spent by parents on home schooling for which a public school teacher would be paid"

P
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Old 09-29-2008, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
5,217 posts, read 4,253,518 times
Reputation: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polybius View Post
IMO, this is a quite well written opinion piece. Much better than the cheap personal attacks in some of the posts! Tsk, Tsk this is the Great Debates Forum is it not? However I would say that it contributes nothing to the ongoing discussion except for an insight into the writers world view and political leanings. Statements made as absolute truth such as "lower prices is true only of mass-produced consumer products", "privatization has the sinister goal of clericalizing this society" and the entirety of thought #6 need some support. Some reference cites supporting the opinion would perhaps lead to further discussion and thoughtful consideration of the writers points. But as I indicated at the start of this paragraph, this is simply my opinion.


On the other hand, a few factual reports to foment debate:

HSLDA | Academic Statistics on Homeschooling

"In 1997, a study of 5,402 homeschool students from 1,657 families was released. It was entitled, "Strengths of Their Own: Home Schoolers Across America." The study demonstrated that homeschoolers, on the average, out-performed their counterparts in the public schools by 30 to 37 percentile points in all subjects. A significant finding when analyzing the data for 8th graders was the evidence that homeschoolers who are homeschooled two or more years score substantially higher than students who have been homeschooled one year or less. The new homeschoolers were scoring on the average in the 59th percentile compared to students homeschooled the last two or more years who scored between 86th and 92nd percentile"[/SIZE]

The Results of Home Schooling vs Public Schools

"There can be little doubt that the public school system in many countries, including the United States, is doing a very poor job and many would say is failing. One obvious alternative is to home school your children but do the results of comparing home schooling to public schooling support this as a good choice?"

"As if this were not enough, costs were also lower. On average, government schools spent $6,500 per student each year and private schools spent $3,500. By contrast, parents undertaking home schooling spent about $550 per student each year. This figure for home schooling does not of course take into account the time spent by parents on home schooling for which a public school teacher would be paid"

P
I agree that this and the other thread of degenerated and doesn't belong in this Great debates forum. It all started with Valley Native name calling..in addition, he provided no substantial facts to back up any of his argument. He seems to think that his "experience" having been a private school student is evidence enough.. however, I was a public school student with a great experience too. What he fails to understand is experience varies from person to person and things can not be measured by experience alone. i have asked the moderator to move the other thread over to the Politics and Other Controversy Thread for exactly that reason. I am also guilty of quipping back out of complete frustration.

I have provided many links, articles an informatio relating to the topic of private vs. public that was based on actual testing. Ones that also compared not only school to school , but socio economic students in one type of school to those of the same socio economic status in the other type of school. In both studies private and public schools came out even and actually, as the poster above you mentioned, the math and science scores were better in pubic than in private school.

I dont doubt homeschooling is probably THE best type of schooling that you can give.. that is if the parent is knowledgeable enough of all the topics to work with their child and actually teach them. Homeschooling, hoewver, is a very small portion of the population as I showed in one of my recent posts. The reason for that is because it's not always the best option for parents for lots of reasons.. including lack of available time to teach with both parents holding down jobs to make ends meet.

I don't know if I linked to it, but there was also a study regarding U.S standings scholastically starting in the 1960's and despite the fact that we may not have ranked as high, we still managed to be the top country in the world in many areas regardless. Perhaps for reasons the poster you responded to mentioned.

Another international study I linked to compared the best school s in the world and examining what made them succesful. One of the things mentioned is the method that U.S uses to teach their students, which may be a reason why U.S students are not retaining as much as students in other countries. I believe that the report talks about how we are taught to "memorize" rather than analyze (something to that affect). All of the top schools in the world are publicly funded and/or government run, btw.

The argument is not neccesarily WHICH option is best, private, public or homeschooling.. but rather turning the public option over to a privatized system. The reason I did this poll is to prove a point.. and that point is that there would be a significant percentage of people that would not be able to afford an edcuation for their child. Right now, as it stands, EVERY child in this country is guaranteed an education regardless of socio economic status. While not all utilize it, not all make it benefit them and some do still end up undereducated or uneducated, it's NOT because they weren't given the opportunity for an education. Right now, parents have choices.. they can use the public school system, they can send their child to private school and pay a tuition , or they can homeschool their child. No one can say there arent' choices. Remove public schooling and turn schools over to private instituations and it opens a can of worms. It opens the unacceptable probability that there will be many that will be left out of education due to lack of financial ability to afford it. Education will be available only for those that re the wealthiest .

As for the healthcare issues and it's affordability, she is right on the money with her post. Many argue that affordability in the health insurance industry is thwarted by the inability for insurance to compete nationally across state lines. If that is true, then schools are even less able to compete across state lines, as parents choices are limited to a 50 mile radius, if even that. All her points in her posts are also right on the money. Private schools do not have to take every student.. so where does the student go that gets rejected from the school for whatever reason? What is to stop a private institution from giving open spots to people who can pay the most for them?

Having 30% of America's population uneducated and undereducated is just completely unacceptable.

Last edited by TristansMommy; 09-29-2008 at 05:55 PM..
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Old 09-29-2008, 07:37 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,781,741 times
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The question is why people believe that only schools can properly educate a child.
If this was the case the 1st humans were unable to learn anything, because there was nobody to teach them, they had to be autodidact.
In other words the fact that people actually pay for an education only proves how 'stupid' they are.

I find it ridiculous that there are parents who pay big bucks to ensure that their child enrols in the day-care school of their choice.
Besidez, a formal education means nothing if the child has no inherent talent himself.
Even a private school is dependent on the material they receive.
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Old 09-29-2008, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 35,148,097 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
I find it ridiculous that there are parents who pay big bucks to ensure that their child enrols in the day-care school of their choice.Besidez, a formal education means nothing if the child has no inherent talent himself. Even a private school is dependent on the material they receive.
Do you have a point you are trying to make?
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Old 09-29-2008, 08:08 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,781,741 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by Greatday
Quote:
Do you have a point you are trying to make?
There is no need to pay for an education.
Heck, there is no need to go to school to become educated.
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Old 09-29-2008, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
5,217 posts, read 4,253,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by GreatdayThere is no need to pay for an education.
Heck, there is no need to go to school to become educated.
"

To think that is .. well a little out there, don't you think.

For one, our knowledge base is so much more advanced than it was.. oh say 100 years ago. Medical school back then is probably equal to what a freshman college bio class is today?

Math.. is by far my worse subject. I really have NO BUSINESS teaching sequential math to my son.. history I could handle and would enjoy.. but if he had me homeschooling him he'd do miserably in the math department.. heck even the science department. My brothers, on the other hand, would excel at teaching their kids math & science
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Old 09-29-2008, 08:30 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,781,741 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by TristansMommy
Quote:
To think that is .. well a little out there, don't you think.
No.
I only needed a school to teach me how to read & write and basic math.
I don't need a school to teach me what to think because I'm perfectly capable to figure out myself how to think.
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Old 09-29-2008, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
5,217 posts, read 4,253,518 times
Reputation: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by TristansMommy No.
I only needed a school to teach me how to read & write and basic math.
I don't need a school to teach me what to think because I'm perfectly capable to figure out myself how to think.

Schools are not in the business of teaching you WHAT to think or HOW to think?? They give you the tools to teach your brain how to work through problems.. (that's what sequential math is for.. apparently because i haven't used it since H.S).

They teach FACTS.. about chemistry, history..etc. They don't, in any way.. tell you HOW to think or WHAT to think.. just the facts...

Knowledge is Power!
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