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View Poll Results: Would you be able to afford to Educate your child under a fully privatized system?
Yes 40 59.70%
No 27 40.30%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-29-2008, 09:11 PM
 
Location: Right where I want to be.
4,507 posts, read 7,825,943 times
Reputation: 3304

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
Schools are not in the business of teaching you WHAT to think or HOW to think?? They give you the tools to teach your brain how to work through problems.. (that's what sequential math is for.. apparently because i haven't used it since H.S).

They teach FACTS.. about chemistry, history..etc. They don't, in any way.. tell you HOW to think or WHAT to think.. just the facts...

Knowledge is Power!
When was the last time you were in school? I'm guessing your son is young and you just haven't encountered an 'interpretation' of facts being taught in school.

You know some of science is theory right? There aren't always facts. History especially lends itself to interpretation and the teacher can very easily lead students in what to think rather than how to think for themselves.

We had a 7th grade history teacher who said "THE most important thing you will learn in my class this year is how to properly organize your binder." Yup, it was on her parent handout at orientation and repeated to the students on the first day of school. I will have to agree with her that it might have been the most valuable lesson DD learned in her class. Fortunately DD is very a dedicated student and learned history despite the teachers failings. This is only one glaring example. Another would be my sons transitional algebra class, where all the tests were multiple choice, all the homework was graded for completion rather than content and DS was getting an A. Then we realized he had learned to plug-n-chug the answers well enough to get the right answers and yet NOT LEARN ANY ALGEBRA.

BTW, this is one of the best 'scoring' schools in our state!!

Fortunately my kids know that school isn't about getting a grade, it's about getting an education. Sometimes that means doing more work than the teachers require, sometimes it means ignoring the teacher completely (in the case of teaching DS how to properly solve algebraic equations). It's unfortunate, but the kids sure are getting quite an 'education' in the public school system. I hate to think what their academic condition might be had we not been homeschoolers first and instilled them with a love of learning and the value of true education before putting them in 'real' school.
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:13 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,518,646 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by Greatday
Quote:
But, I am not lying to myself -
Denial is not a river in Egypt.

Quote:
Your statement was assinine and foolish at best
At least I do not call others asinine or foolish for simply disagreeing with me.
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:16 PM
 
Location: Bay Area
2,406 posts, read 6,798,499 times
Reputation: 1843
We pay for private school tuition to educate our child (approx $12,000).

We also pay $9,000 in property taxes and a large portion goes to educate someone else's child.

IMO we should get a hefty tax break for the fact that we are not using the educational system.
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:26 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,366,957 times
Reputation: 4893
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
At least I do not call others asinine or foolish for simply disagreeing with me.
I call it as I see it - and your comments were / are as I called them
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Old 09-30-2008, 06:15 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
5,217 posts, read 4,112,847 times
Reputation: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCyank View Post
When was the last time you were in school? I'm guessing your son is young and you just haven't encountered an 'interpretation' of facts being taught in school.

You know some of science is theory right? There aren't always facts. History especially lends itself to interpretation and the teacher can very easily lead students in what to think rather than how to think for themselves.

We had a 7th grade history teacher who said "THE most important thing you will learn in my class this year is how to properly organize your binder." Yup, it was on her parent handout at orientation and repeated to the students on the first day of school. I will have to agree with her that it might have been the most valuable lesson DD learned in her class. Fortunately DD is very a dedicated student and learned history despite the teachers failings. This is only one glaring example. Another would be my sons transitional algebra class, where all the tests were multiple choice, all the homework was graded for completion rather than content and DS was getting an A. Then we realized he had learned to plug-n-chug the answers well enough to get the right answers and yet NOT LEARN ANY ALGEBRA.

BTW, this is one of the best 'scoring' schools in our state!!

Fortunately my kids know that school isn't about getting a grade, it's about getting an education. Sometimes that means doing more work than the teachers require, sometimes it means ignoring the teacher completely (in the case of teaching DS how to properly solve algebraic equations). It's unfortunate, but the kids sure are getting quite an 'education' in the public school system. I hate to think what their academic condition might be had we not been homeschoolers first and instilled them with a love of learning and the value of true education before putting them in 'real' school.
Well there is obviously something wrong with your schoolthen

I learned ALOT during my public school education..far beyond organizing a binder
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:01 AM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,939,282 times
Reputation: 3848
One of the undeniable benefits of ignorance and illiteracy is the unshakeable belief that one can be a better doctor, lawyer, bridge-builder or chemist than all of them edumicated folks. One of the psychological disadvantages of education is that, the more you learn, the more you realize what a vast, unembraceable ocean of knowledge is out there. I guess that's how all those evil teachers deprive children of the ability to think for themselves -- by giving them too much to think about. If that is the problem, privatization is not the way to solve it; abolishing education is.
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Old 09-30-2008, 11:17 AM
 
54 posts, read 80,477 times
Reputation: 33
Exclamation Actual information with cites!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
All of the top schools in the world are publicly funded and/or government run, btw.
Rather an amazing statement! Probably the easiest way to contest this assertion is to suggest that you check where the children of any of the worlds 'elite' are educated. Given unlimited assets I'm relatively sure that very few parents would select a public school for little Joey and Janie. Additionally, I'm sure that Harvard, Princeton, and Yale would be amazed to learn they have been supplanted by any public university.

The following reports use excellent criteria to rate performance.

University: National Universities Rankings - Best Colleges - Education - US News and World Report

Secondary:Gold Medal Schools - US News and World Report

Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
Right now, as it stands, EVERY child in this country is guaranteed an education regardless of socio economic status. While not all utilize it, not all make it benefit them and some do still end up undereducated or uneducated, it's NOT because they weren't given the opportunity for an education.
The crux of the discussion! Every child in this country is guaranteed a seat in a public school- not an education or even the opportunity for an education!
IMHO, Caring parents faced with a dysfunctional school system will in fact find a way to 'afford' an alternative be it private, home schooling, or even move to where the schools are working. What we as a society can do is to help concerned parents to educate their children. This includes vouchers for private school.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
Private schools do not have to take every student.. so where does the student go that gets rejected from the school for whatever reason? What is to stop a private institution from giving open spots to people who can pay the most for them?
Those with socialist leanings consistently fail to understand market economy. Perhaps you can provide an example of something that government does more efficiently than the private sector?
What insures that we have seats for all children? Competition and profit. If I make $10 per student, then I will add seats as necessary so I can maximize my profit. If another school is more successful (profitable) I will study their operation and copy the best parts. The student who is rejected by the school should probably be institutionalized- all students capable of being educated would be accepted because of the profit motive!


Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
Having 30% of America's population uneducated and undereducated is just completely unacceptable.
We have absolute agreement on this point. Unfortunately, this is the case with our current public school system. Since public schools are failing to educate that 30% (or more!), we still need to find a way to educate our children.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2008/2008032.pdf

"Among public high school students in the class of 2004–05, the averaged freshman graduation rate—an estimate of the percentage of an incoming freshman class that graduates 4 years later with a regular diploma— was 74.7 percent. Nebraska had the highest averaged freshman graduation rate at 87.8 percent, and Nevada had the lowest rate at 55.8 percent. Sixteen other states had rates above 80 percent, and 10 other states and the District of Columbia had rates below 70 percent. The overall averaged freshman graduation rate among public school students increased from 71.7 percent for the class of 2000–01 to 74.7 percent for the class of 2004–05. Between these years, the rate increased in 44 states and the District of Columbia."
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Old 09-30-2008, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
5,217 posts, read 4,112,847 times
Reputation: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polybius View Post
Rather an amazing statement! Probably the easiest way to contest this assertion is to suggest that you check where the children of any of the worlds 'elite' are educated. Given unlimited assets I'm relatively sure that very few parents would select a public school for little Joey and Janie. Additionally, I'm sure that Harvard, Princeton, and Yale would be amazed to learn they have been supplanted by any public university.

The following reports use excellent criteria to rate performance.

University: National Universities Rankings - Best Colleges - Education - US News and World Report

Secondary:Gold Medal Schools - US News and World Report


Um.. this discussion is NOT about college..it's; about the elementary and secondary schools.. I already linked to the international studies of the top school systems in the world..



http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2008/2008032.pdf

"Among public high school students in the class of 2004–05, the averaged freshman graduation rate—an estimate of the percentage of an incoming freshman class that graduates 4 years later with a regular diploma— was 74.7 percent. Nebraska had the highest averaged freshman graduation rate at 87.8 percent, and Nevada had the lowest rate at 55.8 percent. Sixteen other states had rates above 80 percent, and 10 other states and the District of Columbia had rates below 70 percent. The overall averaged freshman graduation rate among public school students increased from 71.7 percent for the class of 2000–01 to 74.7 percent for the class of 2004–05. Between these years, the rate increased in 44 states and the District of Columbia."
Not exaclty sure what point you are proving with the above quote. It shows the highest percentage of graduates as growing? Some states better than others.. that all goes back to education being a problemon LOCAL levels and school problems being localized, not nationalized.

Oh.. and Washington DC as well as some other areas have tried a "voucher" program that pretty much failed or was a "big dissappointment".. you can go dig up my posts that link to that too.

As for what the gov't does better.. I don't really know.

But look at what is going on today in your "free markets".. just let them out, run loose and look what they do .. they pillage the people for profits and then when it runs dry they scream foul and want a handout. I have NO FAITH whatsoever in corporations etc. All they will do is destroy the educational system with their greed....

Parents already have a choice.. they can send their kids to private institutions if they can afford it...
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Old 09-30-2008, 12:32 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,518,646 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by Greatday
Quote:
I call it as I see it - and your comments were / are as I called them
Funny that you never see your own reflection in the mirror.

What truly would be asinine and foolish is claiming that everyone who disagrees with you is asinine and foolish, which is exactly what you are doing.
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Old 09-30-2008, 04:01 PM
 
54 posts, read 80,477 times
Reputation: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
The following reports use excellent criteria to rate performance.

University: National Universities Rankings - Best Colleges - Education - US News and World Report

Secondary:Gold Medal Schools - US News and World Report


Um.. this discussion is NOT about college..it's; about the elementary and secondary schools.. I already linked to the international studies of the top school systems in the world.."
"Um.. this" was in response to your post in this thread which quite simply said: "All of the top schools in the world are publicly funded and/or government run, btw".
Did you not mean 'All of the..... '?
Additionally the second url is a link for secondary schools- you can tell this because it says 'secondary' with the link.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
Not exaclty sure what point you are proving with the above quote. It shows the highest percentage of graduates as growing? Some states better than others.. that all goes back to education being a problemon LOCAL levels and school problems being localized, not nationalized.
You posted "Having 30% of America's population uneducated and undereducated is just completely unacceptable." I agreed. So I posted a link to demonstrate that public schools in 10 states and the District of Columbia graduate less than 70% of the enrolled freshmen, (close to1/3?) and Nevada at 56% (nearly half!!?). Overall, public schools leave an average of 25% of the children uneducated. Do you now understand the point about PUBLIC SCHOOLS and 30% uneducated; the points we were in agreement with? Our Public Schools are failing to educate our children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
Oh.. and Washington DC as well as some other areas have tried a "voucher" program that pretty much failed or was a "big dissappointment".. you can go dig up my posts that link to that too.
You need to understand that in a debate it is incumbent upon the one making an assertion to provide a basis and cite for said assertion. IMO "you can go dig up my posts that link" doesn't meet that test.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
As for what the gov't does better.. I don't really know.
You don't know what "gov't" does better!! Amazing admission!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
But look at what is going on today in your "free markets".. just let them out, run loose and look what they do .. they pillage the people for profits and then when it runs dry they scream foul and want a handout. I have NO FAITH whatsoever in corporations etc. All they will do is destroy the educational system with their greed....
IMO, this is a poorly written, poorly reasoned out rant. So I respond with an opinion (rant?) I believe to be well reasoned and supportable. Since you have "NO FAITH whatsoever in corporations etc" I suggest that you move to the projects and live in "gov't" provided housing, drive a Trabant, Yogo, or Lada (all prime examples of 'gov't' produced cars), educate your child in a "gov't" school in Nevada. I Find it amazing that you're in favor of "gov't" systems even if you don't know what 'gov't does better!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
Parents already have a choice.. they can send their kids to private institutions if they can afford it...
Or they can send their children to public school where 25% (on average) are left "uneducated and undereducated".

P
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