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View Poll Results: Would you be able to afford to Educate your child under a fully privatized system?
Yes 40 59.70%
No 27 40.30%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-01-2008, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,366,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
Name me 1 successful and thriving country that has a strictly privatized school district.. one that isn't government run!!

What percentage of hte population then actually gets an education?

As a result, how many of their population are poor ? Bet you there is a huge gap between the wealthy and the poor with no middle.

Whati s their standing against nations of the world.. and in innovation, etc.

Don't like how the government is doing their job.. then vote them out of office when their term is up.. simple!

States can fund their own schools but conform to the gov't guidlnes in order to recieve extra gov't funding.. Don't agree with that.. then elect gov't officials who will run the schools their own way...because every state has the right to decide.


Again.. want a privitized system. .. then privatize school districts on yoru local level... go ahead.. try it on a small scale first..we'll all watch and see how that works out for you... be my guest.

I'm AGAINST privitization on a national level.. do whaty ou need to do to fix your own schools and stay out of mine!
TM - now you are being somewhat melodramatic -

There will be private schools. There will be public schools.

The fact is - the GOVERNMENT (Federal) interferes with local governments decision making on education (an indisputable fact TM). This is what many, if not most, complain about. Get the Federal Government out of LOCAL education.

There are FEW, very FEW, who call for a total privatization of our educational system - I know I don't think it should be totally privatized.

Now - try being a little calmer in your post - they are becoming almost incoherent.

And, PLEASE use the spell check - PLEAAASSSSEEEEE
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Old 10-01-2008, 11:59 AM
 
372 posts, read 760,869 times
Reputation: 126
Perhaps I'm missing the intention of the original post and poll question. Is this a question of whether one would be able to afford a privatized system, or a soapbox for you to rant about how bad a nationally privatized system would be?

If it's just forum for you to voice endlessly about your view of privatized systems, then there's really no sense in one trying to debate that they could afford to pay. We're arguing two different points. I'm arguing that most could afford it. You're arguing that it's a flawed system.

Perhaps you'd prove more successful if you posted a poll question, "Should the US adopt a nationally privatized education system?"
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Old 10-01-2008, 12:04 PM
 
372 posts, read 760,869 times
Reputation: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
Allt he priorities in the world do not make something unaffordable suddenly more affordable. Which priority do I need to give up.. do I give up food, shelter, oil to heat my shelter, .. do I give up my health insuranc which costs me $856/month.. maybe I sacrafice my insulin then.. but then again If I give up food to educate my kids then I won't need as much insulin right?

A lot of the working middle income familes are already "trimmed" with thier priorities straight.. and they still wouldn't have enough left to afford privitized education..

This whole thing keeps going in circles.. and Im just about through.. tired of repeating myself.. if you dn't want to read the facts and links I've posted and you want to ignore the facts thats fine..

Bottom line.. our problem has nothing to do with privitization of schools vs. public.. the data already proves the results are no different. Voucher programs have been a dissappointment in cities that have tried it..which means that there is something else that is wrong...and has nothing to do with gov/t or publick funded schools.
I believe you're wrong, and I'll give you a metaphor to prove my point.
You "need" to purchase an auotmobile. You believe you're entitled to a car with all of the bells and whistles and you want to purchase a mercedes. A Ford escort would be just as effective in getting you from point A to point B, but you want the extras. However your budget can't afford a mercedes. So strip down the car back to it's basic requirements, four wheels, an engine that runs, etc, and suddenly it's something that you can afford.

The same applies for schools. If we weren't paying for so many extracurricular activities, the cost to educate a student would become more affordable. Perhaps the overall quality of a "well rounded" education would suffer, but the cost for the basic education would be far less than the "Bells and whistles" version.
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Old 10-01-2008, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,236 posts, read 40,273,555 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
Schools are not in the business of teaching you WHAT to think or HOW to think?? They give you the tools to teach your brain how to work through problems.. (that's what sequential math is for.. apparently because i haven't used it since H.S).

They teach FACTS.. about chemistry, history..etc. They don't, in any way.. tell you HOW to think or WHAT to think.. just the facts...

Knowledge is Power!
And you can get knowledge from books. Books available for ANYONE to read, whether you know much or little about the subject.

The other plan is an apprenticeship program...knowledge gained from watching others work in the field, and perhaps trying it out for yourself.
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Old 10-01-2008, 12:13 PM
 
372 posts, read 760,869 times
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Wouldn't teaching you how to work through problems be teaching you how to think?

They're developing your thought process based on a system (The scientific method).
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Old 10-01-2008, 12:14 PM
 
54 posts, read 80,477 times
Reputation: 33
Have you ever attended or watched an actual debate? You seem to be shifting around in an attempt to dodge the issues. Answering only those you choose and ignoring those that are problematic! Also what you say in each post has no bearing or reference to a what you may have said in another post unless a reference to said statement is provided. ie: saying in essence "listen to what I mean- not what I say" is not acceptable. Please try to be concise and accurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
"Um.. this" was in response to your post in this thread which quite simply said: "All of the top schools in the world are publicly funded and/or government run, btw".
Did you not mean 'All of the..... '?
Additionally the second url is a link for secondary schools- you can tell this because it says 'secondary' with the link.

yeah.. those are the best schools in the U.S.. i was talking globally .. BIG difference.. I say it again.. THE TOP SCHOOL SYSTEMS IN THE WORLD ARE ALL PUBLICLY FUNDED.. I didn't say the U.S. I said the world..
Try to be accurate please. You did not in this post say "THE TOP SCHOOL SYSTEMS IN THE WORLD ARE ALL PUBLICLY FUNDED"; you actually said "All of the top schools in the world are publicly funded".
Since the US certainly has some of the finest schools in the world my post and cite is absolutely relevant. The cite simply defines the best in the US; I might add they are not all publicly funded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
You posted "Having 30% of America's population uneducated and undereducated is just completely unacceptable." I agreed. So I posted a link to demonstrate that public schools in 10 states and the District of Columbia graduate less than 70% of the enrolled freshmen, (close to1/3?) and Nevada at 56% (nearly half!!?). Overall, public schools leave an average of 25% of the children uneducated. Do you now understand the point about PUBLIC SCHOOLS and 30% uneducated; the points we were in agreement with? Our Public Schools are failing to educate our children.


If a child fails or flunks out of school or decides to walk away from school at the age of 16 without graduating..that's on them. .I already acknowledged that it would NOT be for lack of availability of an education. There is a VAST difference between being uneducated because schools are out of reach as opposed to uneducated for people who drop out of school, fail to put in the work and leave THEMSELVES or their children uneducatd as a result!
You posted "Having 30% of America's population uneducated and undereducated is just completely unacceptable." You did not qualify this statement in any way or indicate "If a child fails or flunks out of school or decides to walk away from school at the age of 16 without graduating..that's on them."
I absolutely disagree with the second sentiment for all of the reasons I agree that education is a responsibility of the community. If 25% of the students drop out of school, we have 25% of our children undereducated- in essence we have failed them and our society. Our Public Schools are failing to educate our children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
First.. I said the top SCHOOL SYSTEMS in my other post.. and that's what I meant in the one you are trying to quote..

This debate revolves around the privitization of public schools.. .which is elementary and secondary schools... and has nothing to do with college education.. so while I may have typed schools in haste in that post.. I've said the same thing over and over and over again as school systems.

Colleges , or optional additional education, is in a whole other league and NOT what this topic is about or in reference too.. colleges, while open to the public, do not fall under the public education category as they charge tuition that isn't paid for through taxes (property taxes) or run by the government. It's also not MANDATED education but optional. Again.. a whole other ball game. So therefore top "schools" that pertain to the category of mandated elementary and secondary education .. my statement is not incorrect after all.

Don't try to backpeddle now because I've proven YOU wrong.
"listen to what I mean- not what I say"
It becomes more and more obvious that you have a limited understanding of the topic and/or of the use of concise language! The topic title is "If schools were privatized would you be able to afford an education for your child?". Perhaps if you meant to include only primary and secondary schools you should have used the proper terms/language?All of our state universities and most of our 2 year community colleges are supported by tax revenues and operated under government control. Are you trying to say these are not public schools? If you look at the cost of a private university vs the cost of a state university the impact of taxpayer support is obvious. The topic title certainly speaks to the affordability of private vs public university education.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
School performance falls along socio economic lines.. Private schools are primarily white kids from good socio economic standings.. so those schools will have overall better "numbers". I linked to studies that compared students of similar socio- economic standing in both types of schools and the results were even..with public schools actually performing better on math tests.

And that is even evident in my neck of the woods where the poorer neighborhoods have poorer performance.

So.. privitize the entire system and open up the schools to everyone that can afford it or those on public assistance.. and it will be no better. Just look at the results of the voucher program in DC. It was dissappointing and proved to not be more effective than the current system.

DAMN Straight I don't trust corporations.. they are only out to make a buck and would screw anything and anyone.. even thier own countries economy to get as much money as they possibly can before they cut and run. Don't need to live in the projects to have a distrust for corporations..

Im tired of corporate welfare.. Im' tired of my politicians being bought and paid for by money greedy corporations who corrupt everything they touch !!

I only trust government more because I can actually hold members of Congress and the Senate accountable when I cast my vote.. I have NO control when it comes to corporations.. until I make my voice heard, as so many have this past week, on capital hill by holding our senators, congressman and local politicians accountable.

And that also includes taking more active role on the local levels and holding those running the schools in the LOCAL government more accountable!!
I was under the impression that you were self employed- a member of the evil corporate structure perhaps?
I find it amazing that you trust government more and believe that you have more influence on the Senate or Congress than you do on corporations! Multitudes of groups that influence corporations by their actions and buying practices refutes your belief. As opposed to the multitude of politicians continuously re-elected at all levels despite the best efforts of grass roots activists!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polybius View Post
Since you have "NO FAITH whatsoever in corporations etc" I suggest that you move to the projects and live in "gov't" provided housing, drive a Trabant, Yugo, or Lada (all prime examples of 'gov't' produced cars), educate your child in a "gov't" school in Nevada. I Find it amazing that you're in favor of "gov't" systems even if you don't know what 'gov't does better!
P
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Old 10-01-2008, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,236 posts, read 40,273,555 times
Reputation: 10915
I could also note a number of very successful men who never finished high school, much less college. For example, Abraham Lincoln never attended law school, but he was a lawyer before he became president.

Professionals in business and law. As far as the medical professions, I can't specifically point to any single person, yet your "country doctors" didn't have the "education" that doctors have today, and seemed wiser than the ones we have now.

Last edited by TKramar; 10-01-2008 at 12:59 PM..
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Old 10-01-2008, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,366,957 times
Reputation: 4893
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
Professionals in business and law. As far as the medical professions, I can't specifically point to any single person, yet your "country doctors" didn't have the "education" that doctors have today, and seemed wiser than the ones we have now.
I can assure you - no, GUARANTEE YOU, that there is no one admitted to practice law in this country, or anyone licensed to practice medicine in this country, who has not had formal education training -

NO ONE
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Old 10-01-2008, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
5,217 posts, read 4,112,847 times
Reputation: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polybius View Post
Have you ever attended or watched an actual debate? You seem to be shifting around in an attempt to dodge the issues. Answering only those you choose and ignoring those that are problematic! Also what you say in each post has no bearing or reference to a what you may have said in another post unless a reference to said statement is provided. ie: saying in essence "listen to what I mean- not what I say" is not acceptable. Please try to be concise and accurate.


Try to be accurate please. You did not in this post say "THE TOP SCHOOL SYSTEMS IN THE WORLD ARE ALL PUBLICLY FUNDED"; you actually said "All of the top schools in the world are publicly funded".
Since the US certainly has some of the finest schools in the world my post and cite is absolutely relevant. The cite simply defines the best in the US; I might add they are not all publicly funded.

The title of the thread talks about if schools were privitized.. but the actual posting is quite clear since it discusses school districts, cost per district and taxes in my particular district. Last time I looked colleges weren't divided into "districts" . Also there is no debate about privitizing the college system.

While some colleges are funded by the state (like state taxes, etc.) and their tuition is lower as a result, it doesn't change the fact that a tuition must be paid.

Again.. in the context of what this thread is about there is no need to be specific.. this thread is clearly about school districts which refers to elementary schools and secondary schools. Colleges do not fall into "districts"


You posted "Having 30% of America's population uneducated and undereducated is just completely unacceptable." You did not qualify this statement in any way or indicate "If a child fails or flunks out of school or decides to walk away from school at the age of 16 without graduating..that's on them."
I absolutely disagree with the second sentiment for all of the reasons I agree that education is a responsibility of the community. If 25% of the students drop out of school, we have 25% of our children undereducated- in essence we have failed them and our society. Our Public Schools are failing to educate our children.


LOL.. well..if 30% failed that means 70% did not. If 70% didn't fail then why did the 30% fail. It's also important to note WHAT 30% of the students in that school failed.. are they from poor families, do they have a poor home life..etc?

Again.. you can lead a horse to water but you can not force it to drink. If a student fails where others are passing, then that student didn't do enough to actually pass... and the parents didn't do enough to help their child pass..period!

The difference between the 30% that I mention and the 30%you mention is that 30% of students will be uneducated because they can not afford to go to school...NOT because they didn't do the work or the school "failed them". Those 30% may have been in that school and been a part of the 70% that does NOT fail.

No matter what you will never have an absolute 100% of the population that will pass.. it's impossible.

But atleast now EVERYONE regardless of how much money they have has the opportunity for an education. If they fail to seize that opportunity than that is on them.


"listen to what I mean- not what I say"
It becomes more and more obvious that you have a limited understanding of the topic and/or of the use of concise language! The topic title is "If schools were privatized would you be able to afford an education for your child?". Perhaps if you meant to include only primary and secondary schools you should have used the proper terms/language?All of our state universities and most of our 2 year community colleges are supported by tax revenues and operated under government control. Are you trying to say these are not public schools? If you look at the cost of a private university vs the cost of a state university the impact of taxpayer support is obvious. The topic title certainly speaks to the affordability of private vs public university education.

I answered this up above in the first paragraph.

I was under the impression that you were self employed- a member of the evil corporate structure perhaps?
I find it amazing that you trust government more and believe that you have more influence on the Senate or Congress than you do on corporations! Multitudes of groups that influence corporations by their actions and buying practices refutes your belief. As opposed to the multitude of politicians continuously re-elected at all levels despite the best efforts of grass roots activists!
Being self employed doesn't neccesarily mean I'm making a windfall of money or that I'm a corporation. Since when does self employed = corporation or corporate greed?

I actually don't trust both .. I dont' trust the politicians because they allow the corporations to line their pockets to pass legislation in their best interest.

I also don't trust anything or anyone who's sole purpose is money.. GREED is ugly and there is so much truth to the saying that money is the root of all evil. Just about everything we consume comes from a "corporation" and most of them big.. so unless I decide to go live a life with the Amish I will have to buy items made by corporations.

I will tell you this.. Wall Street, Banks and the corporations are not looked upon favorably anymore by the American Public. CEO salaries are absolutely ridiculous and it's completely disgusting that they get their little "golden parachutes" after running companies into the ground..etc.
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Old 10-01-2008, 07:32 PM
 
372 posts, read 760,869 times
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You don't trust politicians, but you believe that they're the best suited to run our education system?

.... and exactly what does all of this have to do with whether or not you would be able to afford an education for your child, if schools were privatized?
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