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Old 09-29-2008, 03:16 PM
 
878 posts, read 1,846,070 times
Reputation: 460

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
The last person my company hired "off the street" can only get 3 pallets of freight done in a night. The average does 8, with some of us (like me) doing about 14-16 a night.

So the person who SAYS the work is "unskilled" has obviously never done it.
Obviously you completely missed the point of my post.
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Old 09-29-2008, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,236 posts, read 40,266,772 times
Reputation: 10915
Quote:
Originally Posted by zman0 View Post
Obviously you completely missed the point of my post.
My point is that I can hammer a nail as effectively as someone can come in "off the street" and work freight. It's a different skill set, but it's still a skill.

I could be up framing a house tomorrow. But I don't want to. I could, sit there all day and hammer nails, but would I be as good as even a carpenter's apprentice?
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Old 09-29-2008, 05:18 PM
 
6,760 posts, read 10,183,620 times
Reputation: 2992
IMO, if its a job that a replacement is not hard or expensive to find, that is going to drop the paycheck for the job.

I was a welder for several years working in production facilities. VERY hard and HOT work. No A/C, in south MS for 5 years and TX for 2 years. I was paid between 10-13 bucks an hour. The job can only pay a certain amount when you can be replaced.

How do you make more? Work your way up and do so much that you simply cannot be easily replaced. Then you can negotiate a better paycheck because your employer realizes that you leaving would make a big impact. Its always nice when you are leaving a job and they try to offer more money to get you to stay. It lets you know that you were a good worker and will not be replaced easily. But at the same time it also pisses me off because I want to know why they weren't paying me that amount all along!
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Old 09-29-2008, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Eastern Washington
13,388 posts, read 42,713,043 times
Reputation: 11470
The free market will set wages according to supply and demand, except where the government interferes. People who are worth big money either create something that many people use (entertainers, CEOs, etc.) or do/create something that's very important to the customer (doctor, lawyer, some artists).

Considering the original post, a guy who starts a family before/without learning a trade or getting an eduacation has made his financial situation worse for the most part, and no one made him do it. It was a choice, and choices have consequences.
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Old 09-30-2008, 07:15 AM
 
878 posts, read 1,846,070 times
Reputation: 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
My point is that I can hammer a nail as effectively as someone can come in "off the street" and work freight. It's a different skill set, but it's still a skill.

I could be up framing a house tomorrow. But I don't want to. I could, sit there all day and hammer nails, but would I be as good as even a carpenter's apprentice?
Again, the term "unskilled" is a term of art. If I go to a temp agency and ask for 30 unskilled laborers, then they know I don't need any specific training. Just guys that can show up and do the work. Some will be better at the job, some worse. Some may have experience, others not.

If I need someone to weld, I cannot go to a temp agency and ask for an unskilled laborer, I have to specifically request a welder. Can the average guy off the street weld? No.

The term "unskilled laborer" doesn't imply incompetence or measure of ability. It means that the worker does not have a trade skill.
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Old 10-01-2008, 08:14 AM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,938,535 times
Reputation: 3848
I was a nerd in high school. It's bad enough to be a nerd, but it's even worse to be nerd from a poor family. There was a girl living 2 houses away who was also in my school, who just wouldn't give me the time of day. She was one of those "popular" girls -- with unbelievable clothes, a car, a dozen boyfriends, and an adoring crowd of followers. And she made it her hobby to pick on me. She mocked my clothes (flea market fare, I must admit, was all my folks could afford), my hair, my accent, my parents, and our 20-year-old Buick. She was relentless. And it seemed to me she was always partying or bullying someone, while I was always studying or sweeping the floor at a nearby grocery store just so I could afford a second pair of jeans. One Saturday afternoon, I was coming back from the library with a heap of books when she and her friends ambushed me. They threw my books down in the gutter, and as I stooped to pick them up, this girl said, "Boo-hoo! She's gonna read!" Well, guess what? Today, this girl is a baker's assistant, earning slightly above the minimum wage, and I am a lawyer with a well-paid office job. If this girl gets paid a lot less than I do, I see a justice in that. Not that I don't appreciate freshly-baked bread or spotless bathrooms, but no one does these jobs out of the goodness of their hearts; if anyone is stuck in a job (s)he hates, it is as a result of one's own improvident choices. Most of my colleagues were nerds as children and teenagers, who were tormented mercilessly by all those "popular" kids, many of whom now clean our bathrooms and bag our groceries. It is as it should be. These people should be paid adequately enough to keep them above the poverty line, or whatever the market will dictate -- but they don't deserve any extra cash for making choices that left them stuck in menial jobs.
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Old 10-01-2008, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,236 posts, read 40,266,772 times
Reputation: 10915
Quote:
Originally Posted by zman0 View Post
Again, the term "unskilled" is a term of art. If I go to a temp agency and ask for 30 unskilled laborers, then they know I don't need any specific training. Just guys that can show up and do the work. Some will be better at the job, some worse. Some may have experience, others not.

If I need someone to weld, I cannot go to a temp agency and ask for an unskilled laborer, I have to specifically request a welder. Can the average guy off the street weld? No.

The term "unskilled laborer" doesn't imply incompetence or measure of ability. It means that the worker does not have a trade skill.
I don't have the money to GET a welder, but if I did, I could weld.

But I'm not trained as a welder...I can merely use a tool in the way it's meant to be used.
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Old 10-01-2008, 12:30 PM
 
878 posts, read 1,846,070 times
Reputation: 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
I don't have the money to GET a welder, but if I did, I could weld.

But I'm not trained as a welder...I can merely use a tool in the way it's meant to be used.
OK. You're right.

Your job unloading freight in the back of a supermarket is just as important and takes as much training as a master electrician who has the knowledge to wire an entire office building.

Congratulations on achieving the height of your career.
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Old 10-01-2008, 12:38 PM
 
Location: vagabond
2,631 posts, read 4,831,584 times
Reputation: 1300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
I was a nerd in high school. It's bad enough to be a nerd, but it's even worse to be nerd from a poor family. There was a girl living 2 houses away who was also in my school, who just wouldn't give me the time of day. She was one of those "popular" girls -- with unbelievable clothes, a car, a dozen boyfriends, and an adoring crowd of followers. And she made it her hobby to pick on me. She mocked my clothes (flea market fare, I must admit, was all my folks could afford), my hair, my accent, my parents, and our 20-year-old Buick. She was relentless. And it seemed to me she was always partying or bullying someone, while I was always studying or sweeping the floor at a nearby grocery store just so I could afford a second pair of jeans. One Saturday afternoon, I was coming back from the library with a heap of books when she and her friends ambushed me. They threw my books down in the gutter, and as I stooped to pick them up, this girl said, "Boo-hoo! She's gonna read!" Well, guess what? Today, this girl is a baker's assistant, earning slightly above the minimum wage, and I am a lawyer with a well-paid office job. If this girl gets paid a lot less than I do, I see a justice in that. Not that I don't appreciate freshly-baked bread or spotless bathrooms, but no one does these jobs out of the goodness of their hearts; if anyone is stuck in a job (s)he hates, it is as a result of one's own improvident choices. Most of my colleagues were nerds as children and teenagers, who were tormented mercilessly by all those "popular" kids, many of whom now clean our bathrooms and bag our groceries. It is as it should be. These people should be paid adequately enough to keep them above the poverty line, or whatever the market will dictate -- but they don't deserve any extra cash for making choices that left them stuck in menial jobs.
what about the guy that studied his rear end off, aced every test he ever took, went on to be the star player in some dynamic organization, and still hates his job? is that improvident?

what about the same guy that, despite his success, can't wait to retire, and open a bakery?

what about the industry leader that wishes he would have served in the military right out of high school instead of college?

what about the down syndrome guy that is smarter than you or i, but can't get above minimum wage from any employer in town?

what about the artist that lost her arms in a car accident, or the football player that broke his back?

it seems to me that you are content in lumping *millions* of people into a single group because of the emotional response to childhood trauma. i don't think that to be the basis of a sound argument.

aaron out.
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Old 10-01-2008, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,236 posts, read 40,266,772 times
Reputation: 10915
Quote:
Originally Posted by zman0 View Post
OK. You're right.

Your job unloading freight in the back of a supermarket is just as important and takes as much training as a master electrician who has the knowledge to wire an entire office building.

Congratulations on achieving the height of your career.
Actually, I work in a home improvement store. And unlike some people I could name, I have the product knowledge to sell the items we stock to people who...basically...do NOT know what they're doing. Honestly, people come in almost wanting YOU to do the job for them!

I'm not a "master electrician". I'm not even an "apprentice". But I did the job in the Navy, and can still do it today. I just have to have a copy of the state electrical code to ensure it's been done to the standards expected in that state. You see, we didn't have "code" in the military. There was simply a right way and wrong way to do things!
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