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Old 10-05-2008, 11:24 AM
 
2,180 posts, read 3,190,095 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elvislives View Post
Hitler could have easily withdrew to to territories he already controlled.Shored up his fronts and fought to a draw.Then guess what? He is a minor superpower.He marries Eva and has a son. Hitler then goes on to rebuild europe and unites the people in the Nazi cause.He is huge in Euoper the people see him as a savior because the rebuilding goes well and there is now plenty of food for everyone.
But he could not have easily withdrawn to territories he controlled, Elvis, let alone shored up his fronts - not unless he did it before the death camps.

As soon as those were known, his fate (death or at best life in prison) was assured. He would not have been permitted to remain alive and free. I assure you that the European rulers would not have left him free - they learned that lesson from Napoleon!

No Eva. No son (the Boys from Brazil notwithstanding). "The Nazi cause" would have been banned at least as effectively then as happened in the 'real' world - those who sympathized with it would have kept their heads low.

You cited an example of George Washington, but unlike Hitler, GW left office before his death, not to mention a little thing like GW's not being wanted for war crimes.

It was not WWII alone for which Hitler's freedom would have been forfeit, Elvis. It was his persecution of Jews and Gypsies and gays. It was his death camps. Everything else was business as usual - but not that.

I'm a fan of "counter-factual histories," but they need a basis of reality to them to make them worth pursuing for me. This is why, earlier, I asked "how did it happen?" What would have caused a change in Hitler's monomaniacal world view such that surrender would have been conceivable to him, when it was so outside his character?

It seems to me that the change would have had to happen in the period of Fall 1941 to January 1942. This was a key period in which a) Hitler and his staff worked actively on plans for the death camps - gassing, etc.; the German army went into Russia and eventually was stopped; and German declared war on the United States, following Pearl Harbor and our declaration of war on Japan.

Even then, with Hitler's seeing no reason to pull back or discontinue his war, retreat and consolidation would have been very difficult, I suspect.
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Old 10-05-2008, 12:07 PM
 
485 posts, read 1,628,828 times
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Default The world would be more orderly and efficent

Of course Adolf Hitler would be dead by now but his ideas for a more unified and organized Europe would have been maintained. He would have guaranteed a more efficent and superior culture and only the best and brightest would have survived.

Europe would not be overwhelmed by people from Third World Countries and there would be a pride and excellence in Europe that does not exist today.

He would have joined forces with Japan and take over the world. It would be very interesting to see if their efficent and hard working cultures combined would have made the world a better place. I suspect it would.
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Old 10-05-2008, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Aiken S.C
765 posts, read 1,682,218 times
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There is some who suspect America was well aware of the death camps as was the Vatican well before we got into the fight.
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Old 10-05-2008, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Aiken S.C
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I suspect with Germanys fanatical devotion to Hitler and the Nazi party there was a point when he could have just stopped and shored up what he had. Look at some of the dictaters throughout history who did as bad if not worse than Hitler and still stayed in power for years. But i do wonder had he stayed the world would have changed profoundly. Shoot we got the nuclear bomb from his scientists.. He also introduced rocket warfare and jet propulsion..
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Old 10-05-2008, 03:38 PM
 
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Hitler also had the mentally retarded and inpatients at psychiatric wards terminated.

He also released and freed prisoners convicted of violent crimes and gave them positions at his death camps.

How much more evil could you get? No other dictator in recent history has been that evil and that selfish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jps-teacher View Post

It was not WWII alone for which Hitler's freedom would have been forfeit, Elvis. It was his persecution of Jews and Gypsies and gays. It was his death camps. Everything else was business as usual - but not that.
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Old 10-05-2008, 03:39 PM
 
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It really wasn't a secret since Hitler had death camps all over Europe. Everybody that wasn't of his race and ethnicity, or too his likings were doomed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elvislives View Post
There is some who suspect America was well aware of the death camps as was the Vatican well before we got into the fight.
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Old 10-05-2008, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Aiken S.C
765 posts, read 1,682,218 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artsyguy View Post
Hitler also had the mentally retarded and inpatients at psychiatric wards terminated.

He also released and freed prisoners convicted of violent crimes and gave them positions at his death camps.

How much more evil could you get? No other dictator in recent history has been that evil and that selfish.
Sure there has been Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussien, just to name a few .. Hitler didn't have a monoply on being a demented creator of genocide. Just look at what Japan did to Korea.. or China's opium crackdown where they killed almost 100,000 of their own citizens in a single day. Even America has paticipated in genocide ask an indian. But lets get this back on topic for now.
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Old 10-05-2008, 04:36 PM
 
2,180 posts, read 3,190,095 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elvislives View Post
There is some who suspect America was well aware of the death camps as was the Vatican well before we got into the fight.
The first of the death camps, Chelmno, did not open until that Fall 1941 period, Elvis. That's part of why I chose it.

Dachau, a concentration camp, opened years earlier - 1933, but served very different purposes for quite a while. Yes, we (and the Vatican and many others) were aware of Dachau. Not the same issue.

Quote:
I suspect with Germanys fanatical devotion to Hitler and the Nazi party there was a point when he could have just stopped and shored up what he had. Look at some of the dictaters throughout history who did as bad if not worse than Hitler and still stayed in power for years. But i do wonder had he stayed the world would have changed profoundly. Shoot we got the nuclear bomb from his scientists.. He also introduced rocket warfare and jet propulsion..
Yes, I gather you suspect that. The difference between the other dictators you name (later) and Hitler is that they all turned their primary terror on the general publics of their countries, rather than with outward warfare.

This cut down on the willingness of the world leaders to step in and do anything. By late 1941, Hitler had already been in enough different parts of Europe with his forces to merit direct warfare against him and his troops. There was a reason I gave you Napoleon as my comparison, rather than Stalin or Amin, etc.
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Old 10-05-2008, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Aiken S.C
765 posts, read 1,682,218 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jps-teacher View Post
The first of the death camps, Chelmno, did not open until that Fall 1941 period, Elvis. That's part of why I chose it.

Dachau, a concentration camp, opened years earlier - 1933, but served very different purposes for quite a while. Yes, we (and the Vatican and many others) were aware of Dachau. Not the same issue.



Yes, I gather you suspect that. The difference between the other dictators you name (later) and Hitler is that they all turned their primary terror on the general publics of their countries, rather than with outward warfare.

This cut down on the willingness of the world leaders to step in and do anything. By late 1941, Hitler had already been in enough different parts of Europe with his forces to merit direct warfare against him and his troops. There was a reason I gave you Napoleon as my comparison, rather than Stalin or Amin, etc.
I am very familier with the death camps i went through a period where i read quite a few books and accounts on the subject..But do this suspend reality forget the death camps and tell me about a real 21st century europe under the nazi's instead of the E.U how do you see it? what is the world like? You know i vaguely remember a book like this. I know i read one based on the South winning the Civil War ..
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Old 10-05-2008, 05:40 PM
 
25,165 posts, read 47,350,122 times
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I can't even imagine how it would be like. Nazi's were not democratic and had no stable constitution. It would be a disaster. Your thoughts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by elvislives View Post
I am very familier with the death camps i went through a period where i read quite a few books and accounts on the subject..But do this suspend reality forget the death camps and tell me about a real 21st century europe under the nazi's instead of the E.U how do you see it? what is the world like? You know i vaguely remember a book like this. I know i read one based on the South winning the Civil War ..
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