U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-05-2008, 10:33 PM
 
2,180 posts, read 3,186,564 times
Reputation: 838

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by elvislives View Post
I am very familier with the death camps i went through a period where i read quite a few books and accounts on the subject..But do this suspend reality forget the death camps and tell me about a real 21st century europe under the nazi's instead of the E.U how do you see it? what is the world like? You know i vaguely remember a book like this. I know i read one based on the South winning the Civil War ..
There are many books like this, and both an entire sub-genre within Science Fiction (Alternate Histories) and a field within the discipline of History (Counter-factual Histories).

Bring the Jubilee (Ward Moore) is an SF version of the South's winning. If the South Had Won the Civil War (Mackinlay Kantor) is a Historian's treatment of the issue.

What If or History Rewritten is probably my favorite anthology in this realm, created in the early 20th century, with tales by Winston Churchill and G. K. Chesterton, among the authors. The field is burgeoning, these days, on both the fiction and essay sides of the question.
**********

Had Hitler somehow survived without having in turn caused the rest of Europe to be conquered or the U.S. to go under or nuke Berlin, I suppose it might have gone something like this:

Hitler does not, in fact, marry his long time partner. He only married her because the end was near - no end, no marriage. No reason to believe that he would have had a child, either, given that they'd not had one in all those years.

Hitler presumably had to return the Sudatenland and allow Austria to return to self-rule, to appease the rest of Europe. As somebody above noted, no defeat of Hitler combined with a far earlier end of the conflict (which kept the US out of Europe and allowed a far earlier end to the conflict with Japan for them) would probably preclude a State of Israel, at least for a while, and the division of the Middle Eastern countries post WWII would be very different.

There are two key questions to the pseudo-future you ask about:

1) Would Hitler be able to restrain his appetite for Europe?
2) Would his successor - whether his child or not - be able to hold onto Germany as an integrated country?

Given that he'd plotted for decades his conquest of Europe, it seems unlikely to me that he'd be able to resist trying again - and if he did, bet that his attempt would have been short-circuited just as Napoleon's was, and he would then not be freed again.

However, because the end of the war came so early, the Soviet Union never had the chance to create the kind of hegemony in Eastern Europe that we saw.

Other potentially interesting ripples might include no Josef Broz siezing power in the Balkans (1943 is when he consolidated his power there, as I recollect); no Mao Tse Dung because he did not have time to rise to power in China in fighting the Japanese; and no Ho Chi Minh, as he had no role model in Mao to follow.
*******

If, instead, Hitler overcomes his urge to conquer Europe, when he dies (or gets weak for some reason), what happens to Germany? Unlike the Balkans, the nationalist fervor there has been less about splitting into parts and more into consolidation, comparatively recently. So, bet it holds together. The Nazi movement, though, has no more taken hold on the continent than the Communist (Russia) or Fascist (Spain) movements before it.

The Cold War became a three way concern, rather than two way, with a lot of tension, but no willingness to get blown to kingdom come on anybody's part. When Hitler dies, while there is an initial urge to replace him with another iron man, there is nobody with the same force of will that he had, nobody who could fill his shoes. As with the Eastern European countries, post-Soviet Union, so, too, Germany. It seeks to return to the democracy it was before Hitler, goes through growing pains.

Less death and destruction. Less interest in neo-Nazis and skinheads. No lasting 'movement' worthy of the name. Over-population sooner. Less conflict in the Middle East, due to no state of Israel. (No idea how that would resolve, just now.)

The Man in the High Castle (Dick) never gets written. Neither does Iron Dreams (Spinrad).

This question would become "What would have happened if Hitler had not retreated in 1941?"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-05-2008, 10:33 PM
 
25,165 posts, read 47,301,031 times
Reputation: 6942
are you one of his followers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrstewart View Post
There will always be genocide, but Hitlers approach was more organized than any other rulers.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-05-2008, 10:35 PM
 
25,165 posts, read 47,301,031 times
Reputation: 6942
Just because Hitler learned about genocide from the Americans and South Africans doesn't mean he can go crazy and gas chamber millions of people. The Jewish people were prosperous people in those times and didn't deserve any of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Come on are you Americans truly trying to pin the deathcamps on lil ol' Hitler?
He got the ideas from America and your Indian reservations* and S. Africa and their townships**.
The only difference is the mortality rate.
You could even argue that the Americans and the S. Africans are crueler than the Nazis by killing their victims very slowly.
See my post:http://www.city-data.com/forum/2473530-post15.html
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-05-2008, 10:36 PM
 
13,779 posts, read 23,205,335 times
Reputation: 7378
Quote:
Originally Posted by artsyguy View Post
are you one of his followers?
No, not at all. The fact is he was very well organized and this is why he was "successful" at what he did for so long. He was also incredibly charismatic but that does not mean I am a follower...just honest.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-05-2008, 10:38 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,514,836 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by artsyguy
Quote:
The Jewish people were prosperous people in those times and didn't deserve any of that.
Who said that the Jews deserved that kind of fate?
Then again, did the Indians and the blacks in SA deserve their fate?
Fact is that the strong will always exploit the weak.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-05-2008, 10:41 PM
 
13,779 posts, read 23,205,335 times
Reputation: 7378
Quote:
Originally Posted by artsyguy View Post
Just because Hitler learned about genocide from the Americans and South Africans doesn't mean he can go crazy and gas chamber millions of people. The Jewish people were prosperous people in those times and didn't deserve any of that.
Artsy, he did not kill only Jews. His hatred was universal.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-05-2008, 10:45 PM
 
25,165 posts, read 47,301,031 times
Reputation: 6942
Is that any way to talk to a minority!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by artsyguy Who said that the Jews deserved that kind of fate?
Then again, did the Indians and the blacks in SA deserve their fate?
Fact is that the strong will always exploit the weak.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-05-2008, 10:52 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,514,836 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by artsyguy
Quote:
Is that any way to talk to a minority!
What the hell are you talking about?
Am I saying that I agree with the fact that the strong abuse the weak?
Learn to read or either learn to stop projecting your preconceived notions (or is it emotion?) on my posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-05-2008, 11:00 PM
 
Location: Midwest
3,697 posts, read 6,712,673 times
Reputation: 5623
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrstewart View Post
I would have to guess he would be dead or senile...don't you agree?
I would guess he'd have died in Leavenworth if they didn't stretch his neck.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-05-2008, 11:02 PM
 
Location: Aiken S.C
765 posts, read 1,680,363 times
Reputation: 388
Tricky explain to me how Hitler built a time machine projected himself to 1948 to observe the National party and the abuse of the non whites then go back in time to 1941 and use the apartheid concept in Nazi germany? Was Hitler Magical or did you just get called out on some smoke you were trying to blow?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top