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Old 10-10-2008, 08:32 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,361,805 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
I am saying that if a you do not own a home (or got a piece of land to call your own) there is no motivation to support the nation you live in.
The above statement is totally and completely Ludicrous and False -
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Old 10-10-2008, 10:31 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,516,394 times
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Originally Posted by totallyfrazzled
Quote:
Are you saying, then, that patriotism is founded solely (or mainly) on a person's own self-interest?
Yes, exactly like capitalism.
Just like the era of Christianity ended with the age of Reason, so has the age of capitalism (which was nothing else but the latest version of a religion) ended with this latest credit crisis;
It has come to inflate or die (blow up the economy 1 last time before it has disappeared completely).

Quote:
By your logic, those who currently rent rather than own a home have no logical reason to be patriotic, because they don't (to quote an old insurance company slogan) "own a piece of the rock".
It is not about owning anything, it is about having security. The piece of rock is nothing but a physical symbol for the abstract feeling of security.
Why else do you need a government if it cannot provide you security (= the basic necessities)?

Originally Posted by elvislives
Quote:
It's called welfare and i have a question, for a dutch citizens why do you know so very little about your homeland?
Because unlike Americans we do not revise history.

And unlike Americans we have also given back our colonies.
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Old 10-10-2008, 11:37 PM
 
Location: Cloud Cuckoo Land
558 posts, read 706,748 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by totallyfrazzled Yes, exactly like capitalism.
Just like the era of Christianity ended with the age of Reason, so has the age of capitalism (which was nothing else but the latest version of a religion) ended with this latest credit crisis;
It has come to inflate or die (blow up the economy 1 last time before it has disappeared completely).

It is not about owning anything, it is about having security. The piece of rock is nothing but a physical symbol for the abstract feeling of security.
Why else do you need a government if it cannot provide you security (= the basic necessities)?

Originally Posted by elvislives Because unlike Americans we do not revise history.

And unlike Americans we have also given back our colonies.
Capitalism isn't the latest version of a religion. It's simply an economic system. You may not like it, but that doesn't turn it into a religion. If anything, disagreeing with capitalism is what has become a religion.

For the life of me, I can't figure out how any of what you've said supports the notion that owning a home is a right. Perhaps you can help clarify that for me. It's ironic, though, that you believe owning a home is a right, but owning a business isn't, especially when private business has brought so much security to so many people.
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Old 10-11-2008, 01:16 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,516,394 times
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Originally Posted by GhostInTheShell
Quote:
Capitalism isn't the latest version of a religion.
Capitalism (like religion) capitalises on the ego, in capitalism's case it is safety through greed and in religion's case it is safety through homogeneity (read: monotheism); where everyone believes the exact same thing.
Just like the religious believe that only their religion (read truth/Gospel) will save them, the capitalist believes that only capitalism will save him.

Reality is part physical and part mental where religion purely feeds on the mental part and capitalism (and all other economic systems) feeds of on the physical part.

Quote:
It's ironic, though, that you believe owning a home is a right, but owning a business isn't, especially when private business has brought so much security to so many people.
I don't believe in owning anything.
But once you acknowledge that a home is just a symbol for safety it makes sense.
BTW I believe that safety itself is an illusion; people have the need for safety to feel in control but control (like safety) is an illusion.
The only 1 you can truly 'control' is yourself.
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Old 10-11-2008, 01:37 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,516,394 times
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Arrow The difference between the Dutch and the American capitalists.

Written in my thread Can you be a Christian capitalist? at 05-21-2008
Quote:
In the Netherlands we base our economics on the principle that we are all responsible for our wellbeing and prosperity, but in the 80's this changed to everyone is only responsible for his own individual wellbeing and prosperity. Reagan and Thatcher were big supporters of this philosophy which was introduced by Milton Friedman & the Chicago school of Economics*.
Generally this resulted in the philosophy that governments should not intervene with economics.
Unfortunately the same economic philosophy championed by Friedman, that everyone should be free to act in his best self-interest in a free economic market, also justifies the fact that leaders of mighty conglomerates, in their own self-interest, reward themselves with unreasonable high salaries, corporate stocks and other perks. These people have enriched themselves shamelessly and are even proud of it.
I guess that in the Netherlands we have no problem with putting a stop to the ever increasing salaries and other perks of our captains of industry.
Source: http://www.city-data.com/forum/3808251-post1.html
And putting a stop to the bonuses and other perks has prevented the Dutch from blowing up the global economy.
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Old 10-11-2008, 06:38 AM
 
Location: NY
1,416 posts, read 4,898,658 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Why else do you need a government if it cannot provide you security (= the basic necessities)?
Actually, IMO a government is needed in order to secure individual FREEDOMS .... not an arbitrary quota of material things. Obviously this is one of the basic points on which you and I differ. I'm a political Independent but I do happen to agree with the Republican philosophy that it's not the government's job to be a 'nanny' (or for that matter a 'Daddy Warbucks' either).

As for the comments about patriotism versus capitalism, you are comparing apples with oranges there. Capitalism is an economic system that operates within fixed parameters; patriotism is an individual emotion that is influenced by many different things and will vary greatly from one person to the next.

I'm glad though that you clarified your previous comments by illustrating how your principles (which appear to strongly favor socialism over capitalism) and opinion of the USA in general, inform them. It's not surprising, under those circumstances, that you have a very different outlook on the subjects of 'rights and rewards' , capitalism, and the foundations of patriotism.
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Old 10-11-2008, 06:56 AM
 
370 posts, read 884,789 times
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You never really own your home anyway. The government does. Even if it's paid off you still owe property taxes which can be a ridiculous amount. If you don't pay them they take your house. Not to mention eminent domain. Home ownership as far as I see it is a pain in the ass.
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Old 10-11-2008, 07:10 AM
 
Location: London
16 posts, read 27,188 times
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Default A home is a basic human right

When you consider how hard the vast majority of people work, the taxes they pay over their life time and the sacrifices many ordinary people make to educate their children and be decent members of the community, it follows that the state should also give back to the people of any country as WE are what makes the wheels of that nation continue to turn. Without the jobs that we all do, be it a dustbin man (garbage collector), teacher or nurse etc. the system would begin to grind to a halt. Everybody who makes a contribution is important and wages should be such, that all working people should be able to afford a roof over their heads. It is a basic human need and anyone who does not recognise this will soon see how the lack of decent housing effects the lives of children, families, crime rates, mental illness etc.

People who are in need of assistance should be given this, HOWEVER, people should be encouraged to work and real incentives put in place to help them re-educate themselves, work AND find a roof that they can afford so they can enjoy a decent quality of life like the rest of us. Those who are too lazy to do so , or think having 5 children they can't take care of and have no love for, should be looked after by the state using OUR money should be seriously dealt with. These people should be sterilized. I know it is extreme and this is coming from a socialist, but this problem in the UK is well and truly out of hand.
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Old 10-11-2008, 07:42 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,516,394 times
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Originally Posted by totallyfrazzled
Quote:
I'm a political Independent but I do happen to agree with the Republican philosophy that it's not the government's job to be a 'nanny' (or for that matter a 'Daddy Warbucks' either).
What makes you think I'm not political independent?
Or that I favour 'nannies' or 'Daddy Warbucks'?
I'll do you 1 better; I don't give a damn about economics and politics, I'm only for whatever works.
So when it comes to politics and economics (or any other kind of philosophy) I’m for the non-dualistic thinking* approach.

Besidez, you cannot have a referee without rules that apply to everyone. The thing is that capitalism is 'simply' put the equal redistribution of wealth which is no different from communism which is the equal redistribution of poverty; in other words there is no difference between communism and capitalism but a philosophical 1, but the end result is always the same: a small group (the strong/rich) lording it over a large group (the weak/poor).

Quote:
As for the comments about patriotism versus capitalism, you are comparing apples with oranges there. Capitalism is an economic system that operates within fixed parameters; patriotism is an individual emotion that is influenced by many different things and will vary greatly from one person to the next.
Wrong, patriotism like capitalism is a philosophy and both philosophies (like religion) are all about the illusionary perception of being safe; the illusion that if you adhere to certain (absolute) rules you will be safeguarded from harm.


Quote:
*I think it makes sense to first define what is meant by “dualistic thinking”. Simply put, it means compartmentalising. It relates to a definite, absolute definition. This can be applied to an action, an object, a thought, a person, an emotion, in fact pretty much anything you would care to imagine. Where dualistic thought is absolute, non-dualistic thought is relative. I will leave you to decide whether that last statement should be considered an example of dualistic or non-dualistic thought.

Dualistic thinking is something we in the West are very good at. When we look at something - let’s use the example of a sunset - we know and clearly define what we are seeing. The sky is up; the ground is down; the sun is setting; night is falling and the day is ending; the stars and moon are coming out; and so on. This is, as mentioned the dualistic approach.

Now let’s try and look at the same sunset from a non-dualistic vantage point. The explanation may seem lengthy and complex on the surface. But look below the surface and it should become short and simple. Once again, this last pair of statements are left without qualification so that you can judge yourself whether they are dualistic or non-dualistic.

The sky is up or down, neither up nor down, or both up and down:
The sky is up – when compared to all that is below it. Someone with their feet firmly on the Earth will perceive the sky as being above them i.e. up.
The sky is down – when compared to all that is above it. An astronaut (taking an extreme example) looking at the Earth from outer space will perceive what we call “the sky” as down. It is well “below” their own altitude.
The sky is neither up nor down – an astronaut could also take this view. They exist for that moment as PART of “the sky”. Stars are all around them. There is no up and there is no down.
The sky is both up and down – alternatively, the same astronaut could conceive themselves as being IN the sky. Whichever way they look there is more sky. It is above them, below them, it is all around them.

The ground is down or up, neither up nor down, or both up and down
Pretty much the same considerations as for “the sky” above (or is it below ) can be made here.
The ground is down – as we normally perceive it.
The ground is up – when considering it from a point near the centre of our planet (an extreme example).
The ground is neither up nor down – considered from one viewpoint of a worm but
The ground is both and down – considered by the same worm from a different perspective.

By now I am guessing that you are getting the hang of this idea of non-dualistic thought.

The sun is setting or rising, neither setting nor rising, or both setting and rising
The sun is setting – in our part of the world.
The sun is rising – in another part of the world (the opposite side).
The sun is neither setting nor rising – at night or during the day.
The sun is both setting and rising – sunrise and sunset are just individual elements of the same cycle.
Source: Dualistic and Non-Dualistic perception - Shaolin Wahnam Institute Discussion Forum
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Old 10-11-2008, 08:08 AM
 
Location: NY
1,416 posts, read 4,898,658 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
...patriotism like capitalism is a philosophy and both philosophies (like religion) are all about the illusionary perception of being safe; the illusion that if you adhere to certain (absolute) rules you will be safeguarded from harm.
I happen to agree with part of your statement, i.e., that religion is 'the illusion that if you adhere to certain (absolute) rules you will be safeguarded from harm'. And I will also agree that any religion is by definition a 'philosophy'. I'll also agree that capitalism is (based on) the philosophy that free enterprise is more beneficial to the individual than government control of the economy, although I disagree that there is anything in capitalism that asserts that we will be 'safeguarded from harm'.... a capitalistic system contains at least as many if not more risks than guarantees. So unless you're defining the capitalistic system ITSELF as 'harmful' (which then gets into the realm of opinion rather than fact) I don't see a valid connection there.

Where we part company is in defining 'patriotism' as a philosophy. It's correct to speak of a 'capitalist philosophy', a 'socialist philosophy', and a 'religious philosophy' ... but I've never heard anyone speak of a 'patriotistic (?) philosophy'. Patriotism is defined in general terms as 'love of one's country'. But even if there is a detailed Philosophy of Patriotism somewhere, I can't imagine that it includes the promise or even the premise that 'If you love your country you will be protected from harm'. I love my country (although I have very often disagreed with the actions of its leaders or certain governmental bodies) but I've never been naieve enough to believe for one second that reciting the Pledge of Allegiance or flying the American Flag was the equivalent of reciting a prayer or making a sacrifice to [insert deity of your choice here] as a result of which I will be given any sort of earthly or after-death reward. My personal loyalty to my country does not IN ITSELF protect me from certain specific harms; the existence of the principles of my country are what does that. In other words, I am under no 'illusion' that my patriotism 'protects me from harm'. I'm also under no illusion that if I myself make bad choices in my life it is the responsibility of my government to assist in straightening out any resulting mess, or that I'm entitled to any material things whatsoever beyond what is necessary to sustain life. There is a big difference between something necessary to SUSTAIN life and something necessary to IMPROVE life. IMO home ownership comes under the category of improving one's life, and the responsibility for obtaining that improvement should fall on the shoulders of the individual, not his government.
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