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Old 10-15-2008, 08:18 AM
 
225 posts, read 306,324 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zman0 View Post
My point is that the Nazi party was a socialist party. Socialism is a step on the path to Communism (the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics), which is generally acknowledged as the leftist ideal.

Again I'll pose the question: given that the Nazi (and Fascist) party was socialist, why is the right wing, which opposes a strong government, characterized as Fascist?

I propose that the premise for equating the right with the Nazi party is solely to demonize the right, and has little to no actual factual basis.
So when I go to a 'social club,' how come the drinks aren't free? It has 'social' right in the name? The Nazi Party, despite whatever they put in their name, was not a socialist movement. And the modern right, despite saying over and over that they stand for smaller government, really want their government the size needed to get them everything they want.
And I dunno, Bush would look pretty dapper in some jack boots with a riding crop. "Let me see yer papers, pardner."
So much of our most right leaning president to date looks pretty fascist. Prison camps for the politically and ethnically unaligned. Wiretaps, kidnapping, torture, full empowerment of the military machine, close ties between government and industry, systematic removal of personal rights and freedoms, secret police, fear mongering, tight control of media, election theft, a relaxation of the wall between secular society and government. Like Hitler, Bush is in favor of government handouts as long as it goes to those he deems 'worthy' like religious groups. Adolph did the same thing in line with his ridiculous racial standards.

It is not right or fitting to call anyone a Nazi, except for a Nazi, I guess. But Bush and the modern right he represents echo original Nazi tactics and ideologies in many ways.
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Old 10-15-2008, 08:30 AM
 
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They just like to think thast anyhting different is evil which is eqauteed with nazi's.National socialist party. The Nazi's were the socialist as the governmant controol all interest.They even mandated thinking( political correctness) and suppress religion.
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Old 10-15-2008, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Tolland County- Northeastern CT
4,459 posts, read 6,089,655 times
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Frankly I do not see any deviation on economic, historic or political terms that change the left from the right!

Political dynamics and idealogy change little- the Far right in the USA today emulates the far right in both political and economic thought- as does the left- the two rarely meet- except at the far ends of the spectrum- ad this is tied to totalitarianism- and even then as with the Nazi's and Communist Soviets, there are profound differences.

Last edited by skytrekker; 10-15-2008 at 09:49 AM..
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Old 10-15-2008, 10:04 AM
 
225 posts, read 306,324 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skytrekker View Post
Frankly I do not see any deviation on economic, historic or political terms that change the left from the right!

Political dynamics and idealogy change little- the Far right in the USA today emulates the far right in both political and economic thought- as does the left- the two rarely meet- except at the far ends of the spectrum- ad this is tied to totalitarianism- and even then as with the Nazi's and Communist Soviets, there are profound differences.
Everyone remember that the spectrum of political ideology is circular - go too far to the right and you end up on the left...
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Old 10-15-2008, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,708 posts, read 7,560,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zman0 View Post
I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Read my opening post, the Nazis exemplified left wing ideas.

Simply not true. Fascism is state-centric but is in partnership with capitalists and private ownership, unlike socialism. It is truly a "totalitarianism of the right." And don't be fooled by the word 'socialist' in the name of the Nazi party. Look at the facts about what the party stood for and about what they put into practice.

Last edited by ParkTwain; 10-15-2008 at 01:16 PM..
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Old 10-15-2008, 01:12 PM
 
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Fascism by defition is a merging of state and corporations and in the case of the US presently it is a merging of state and financial institutions. Fascism can take on many different faces and it wears many different hats and I think anyone who is really aware of what is happening to America today would have a hard time arguing against the suggestion that we are slowly morphing in to a fascist police state.
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Old 10-15-2008, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,708 posts, read 7,560,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonemasonry View Post
Fascism by defition is a merging of state and corporations and in the case of the US presently it is a merging of state and financial institutions. Fascism can take on many different faces and it wears many different hats and I think anyone who is really aware of what is happening to America today would have a hard time arguing against the suggestion that we are slowly morphing in to a fascist police state.

More specifically, Theocratic Fascism.

Frank Zappa nailed it in his appearance on CNN's "Crossfire" show in 1986 during the Reagan years. This particular episode was a discussion about whether the government should regulate the lyrics in popular music.


YouTube - Zappa defines "Fascist Theocracy"

Edit:
I think the driving force of the fascism of Nazi Germany was anxiety about racial purity, whereas in America it is fundamentalist (that is, anti-intellectual) Protestant Christianity's anxiety about moral purity and the necessity of greater social regimentation to address it--of course, while also encouraging everyone to make as much money as possible with minimal interference by any level of government!

Both of those flavors of fascism are concerned with 'purity' of some kind which in turn comes from a concern with the notion of "political absolutes." A politics based on an absolute of some kind is destined to produce a totalitarianism of some flavor. This is in contrast to a politics of incremental progress, based on a rational gathering and assessment of economic and social facts, that also allows for guarding society against certain human weaknesses (including greed). This is the basis for what I understand is the progressive agenda in American politics.

Last edited by ParkTwain; 10-15-2008 at 02:28 PM..
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Old 10-15-2008, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
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Von Mises invented his own definition of 'socialism' (including saying that the use of wage and price controls is "de facto socialism") when talking about Nazism. These articles may represent some part of the origins of today's Right Wing argument that Nazi fascism was socialist. These kinds of redefinitions of words are very insidious.

Why Nazism Was Socialism and Why Socialism Is Totalitarian - George Reisman - Mises Institute
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Old 10-15-2008, 02:05 PM
 
36 posts, read 204,997 times
Reputation: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkTwain View Post
More specifically, Theocratic Fascism.

Frank Zappa nailed it in his appearance on CNN's "Crossfire" show in 1986 during the Reagan years. This particular episode was a discussion about whether the government should regulate the lyrics in popular music.


YouTube - Zappa defines "Fascist Theocracy"

I think the central drive in Naziism was anxiety about racial purity, whereas in America it is fundamentalist Protestant Christianity's anxiety about moral purity and the necessity of greater social regimentation to address it--of course, while also encouraging everyone to make as much money as possible with minimal interference by any level of government!

Good points. As I indicated fascism can wear many different hats or have many different faces but the one common denominator is the merging of state and corporate/business interests.

But you make an excellent case about the drive towards moral purity in re: theocratic fascism, that is definitely something I can see happening.
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Old 10-15-2008, 02:34 PM
 
878 posts, read 1,845,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkTwain View Post
Simply not true. Fascism is state-centric but is in partnership with capitalists and private ownership, unlike socialism. It is truly a "totalitarianism of the right." And don't be fooled by the word 'socialist' in the name of the Nazi party. Look at the facts about what the party stood for and about what they put into practice.
I am not "fooled" by the word "socialist," referring back to the points I made in the OP:

State mandated living wage.
Confescate income not based on earnings.
Prohibit defense companies from earning a profit.
Government involvement in corporations.
Government mandated pensions.
State sponsored education.
Nationalized health care
"Fairness doctrine"
Strong central authority.

These are socialist programs, that are advanced by the modern (American) left. When the government takes over industries (even in part) and mandates how others live to force equality of station, it is socialism.

Pure capitalists, the modern (American) right, abhor the idea of government ownership of corporations, regulating profit, and interfering with the ability of two people to contract.

If you start from the proposition that "Nazis = Right Wing," or "Nazis = the opposite of Communists" then it's easy to dismiss any opposing argument. But if you step back and look at the issue, then Nazis and Communists differ only in degree and not in kind.

edit: I noticed you quoted the great sociologist Frank Zappa as an authority on this issue. Could you cite some of his work in the field and any publications he might have?
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