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Old 06-11-2010, 08:24 AM
 
8,666 posts, read 6,342,850 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks View Post
Am I blaming them? No. I'm simply stating the facts. And I'm stating them from the inner-city, not some rural area or upper-class suburb.
Why is it when black folks state the FACT of the racist history of this nation...and current racism....we are said to be Blaming, whinning, playing the race card....and NEVER said to be simply stating the facts.

I just have one question for people like OR, which they never answer. The question is this: Given the situation of the people in the ghetto, in particular the black people, do you feel that YOU or whites in general could do any better if you walked in their shoes and had parents, grand parents and ancestors exposed to what theirs were exposed to? If so....WHY? To me....people like OR does a lot of arm chair quarterbacking. Its easy to look from the outside in and say what should be done....but its a lot different when you are actually in the game.

 
Old 06-11-2010, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,201 posts, read 14,096,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
I have not lifted up alternatives. My point is that a two parent household does not automatically mean "functional". There are two parent households were the father beats and abuses both with wife and children. There are also single parent households were the mother is economically well off and the children get guidance from other male family members who take them under their wing. Marriage is a SOCIAL CONSTRUCT...not a BIOLOGICAL CONSTRUCT. What young males needs to to be loved and postive male role models. What young females need is to be loved and have positive female role model. In the village construct, that existed in Africa, THE VILLAGE raised the children and not just the biological mother and father. The extended family did as well. If a male died someone, usually a brother, would step in to fill the role. Traditional African society was never dependent solely on a parent for the survival of children, because the Villiage was all involved in teaching and rearing children.
I agree that nothing is 100% certain. But as you have also said, it's the better scenario.

Males need male role models that they can relate to. Female needs female role models & a father figure to help them relate to men properly as they mature. I think we can note many instances with women without father figures look for love and attention in all the wrong places.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
I think the REAL big picture is that the American culture and society as a whole is disintegrating. Its akin to a vrus going around. Who is most likely to be endangered by a virus? Those most likely to be hurt by it are those with already compromised or weak immune systems. If you take the black community, we have a compromised socioeconomic immunity system, from years of oppression of which we never fully recovered from. Thus, black people are impacted harsher by the virus of cultural and economic decline in America. Nearly every statistic that has worsened for blacks, over the last 40 years, has also worsened for whites. That tells me there is general downward trend that is not specific to black, but that impacts blacks greater because of our already vulnerable condition. I mean look at things around you....our economy is walking the tight rope of collapse. Black people did not cause that problem.
We do not help our cause when our own people call for a change in behavior and they are shouted down. We do not help our own cause by having today's hip hop culture teaching young males how to behave.

I generally agree with what you have said here - except the oppression part to a point. I think that other people's behavior should not control our behavior. Just because others do stupid things don't mean we should react stupidly either. But for years and years we have been been told by the "leaders" how to react to those who oppressed us - so in that light, your point is valid.

In general, I think we are pretty close to the same mindset on this.
 
Old 06-11-2010, 09:09 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,201 posts, read 14,096,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aveojohn View Post
Most of these people have low IQ's and are highly ineducable, they and we need to realize this so they can be trained in jobs that they can handle. Until then I fear they will always be with us. And some will never achieve.
When you are in an environment of crappy schools and peers who have lost interest in learning because they perceive they only way out is through a rap career or sports - then you put out young adults who do not appear to be smart.

But if these are the people being put out into the country, they need to be productive and they need to be able to support themselves. So in that light, I agree with your job training statement.

I believe that we have the ability and mind power to make valuable contributions to communities and the country - but there is not a big emphasis on this right now. So I don't agree with the low IQ statement.
 
Old 06-11-2010, 09:38 AM
 
8,666 posts, read 6,342,850 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
I agree that nothing is 100% certain. But as you have also said, it's the better scenario.

Males need male role models that they can relate to. Female needs female role models & a father figure to help them relate to men properly as they mature. I think we can note many instances with women without father figures look for love and attention in all the wrong places.



We do not help our cause when our own people call for a change in behavior and they are shouted down. We do not help our own cause by having today's hip hop culture teaching young males how to behave.

I generally agree with what you have said here - except the oppression part to a point. I think that other people's behavior should not control our behavior. Just because others do stupid things don't mean we should react stupidly either. But for years and years we have been been told by the "leaders" how to react to those who oppressed us - so in that light, your point is valid.

In general, I think we are pretty close to the same mindset on this.

No I don’t think we are far apart, but we do disagree on certain points. The dominant culture in America has been in decline for some time. As I said analogously before, when a virus is spreading the most vulnerable are those with weakened immune systems. They will be impacted much more severely than those with stronger immune systems. After over 3 centuries of oppression, black people have not recovered our immunity and strength as a people. Hence, when the virus of American cultural decline sweeps over the land, blacks are impacted greater by this than others with strong cultural and psychological foundations as a people.

Now, you said we are not bound to do and follow what other people do, but I disagree with that. If a virus is spreading and you have no means of isolating yourself from coming into contact with it, you are going to be exposed and may be sickened by it. Saying that black people are not bound to follow the decline of American culture suggest that black people have the means of isolating themselves from it, which we do not. Furthermore, things you noted like the rap music genre, well, think back to the era when Rap first came out in the early 80’s. The lyrics were nothing like the lyrics of today and the listeners and buyers of this music was mainly black folks. Rappers back then did not become millionaires, if so, rarely. Things changed when the music crossover and over 70% of the music was purchased by whites. Rappers started producing the type of stuff that could make them rich so that they could “Shine” or “bling”. They had to cater to the white audience to make that type of money. Thus, the genre of political or “conscious rap” that was popular early on, most prominent being the group Public Enemy and KRS-One, but many others, faded away. This music did not cross over very well with white listeners and artist could not make the bling. White would and did purchase the gangster rap and the misogynistic morally degenerate type stuff. Being in a capitalistic nation and being poor these artist choose to make money, like all capitalist do. I am not saying that blacks did not start producing "negative" rap until whites demanded it. That type of rap was always out there, along with other forms of rap. Crossover demand simply choose what genre would be rewarded with riches and hence that genre got rewarded and hence encouraged.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 06-11-2010 at 09:57 AM..
 
Old 06-12-2010, 03:59 PM
 
52,641 posts, read 75,477,928 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
No I don’t think we are far apart, but we do disagree on certain points. The dominant culture in America has been in decline for some time. As I said analogously before, when a virus is spreading the most vulnerable are those with weakened immune systems. They will be impacted much more severely than those with stronger immune systems. After over 3 centuries of oppression, black people have not recovered our immunity and strength as a people. Hence, when the virus of American cultural decline sweeps over the land, blacks are impacted greater by this than others with strong cultural and psychological foundations as a people.

Now, you said we are not bound to do and follow what other people do, but I disagree with that. If a virus is spreading and you have no means of isolating yourself from coming into contact with it, you are going to be exposed and may be sickened by it. Saying that black people are not bound to follow the decline of American culture suggest that black people have the means of isolating themselves from it, which we do not. Furthermore, things you noted like the rap music genre, well, think back to the era when Rap first came out in the early 80’s. The lyrics were nothing like the lyrics of today and the listeners and buyers of this music was mainly black folks. Rappers back then did not become millionaires, if so, rarely. Things changed when the music crossover and over 70% of the music was purchased by whites. Rappers started producing the type of stuff that could make them rich so that they could “Shine” or “bling”. They had to cater to the white audience to make that type of money. Thus, the genre of political or “conscious rap” that was popular early on, most prominent being the group Public Enemy and KRS-One, but many others, faded away. This music did not cross over very well with white listeners and artist could not make the bling. White would and did purchase the gangster rap and the misogynistic morally degenerate type stuff. Being in a capitalistic nation and being poor these artist choose to make money, like all capitalist do. I am not saying that blacks did not start producing "negative" rap until whites demanded it. That type of rap was always out there, along with other forms of rap. Crossover demand simply choose what genre would be rewarded with riches and hence that genre got rewarded and hence encouraged.
Great, great points.....An example of what you are talking about in the first paragraph is the the nuclear family. blacks unfortunately had a head start in terms of the breakdown of that family structure due to the institution that brought Black people here. It was about a business and family ties were tertiary, if even considered in most cases.

I'll fast forward to the mid-late '60's, as the "free love" movement came about, as well as women's movements that included more sexual liberation. In between, the Black nuclear family, while still having a higher percentage of single parent homes, most were 2 parent homes, around 70% or so as recent as the 70's and 80's. As those movements continued into the decades after their start, you start seeing an increase in single parent homes across ALL racial groups. With that said, it isn't a surprise that you see a higher percentage in the Black community due to the factors mentioned. I put in this way in terms of Black people in America are in the larger national culture, but aren't THE larger culture, per se. So, what happens to the general culture of America at large, will have a different or larger impact on Black Americans due to factors that go way back, whether we want to deal or accept that or not.

Also, with the Rap/Hip-Hop example, what's interesting is that the first time I heard about "Gangsta Rap" was from White kids, not Black kids. We can go even further back with genre, as it started in the early '70's, but didn't gain national traction really until the mid/late '80's. Even during what many call the "Golden Age" of Hip-Hop from the mid 80's to the early/mid 90's, you had some Whites interested in the more "conscious" Rap, but if you look at who bought albums/CD's by the different sects of Rap/Hip-Hop, it would be telling. I think marketing is a great tool in that, due what seems to perpetuate the stereotypes many have about said people. Meaning, I feel that Gangsta Rap just justifies the feelings of those that buy it and from there, the causal person can't differentiate between what is what within Hip-Hop. So, many feel that Rap/Hip-Hop is monolithic, when it is varied and a lot of that is due to the marketing and control of the corporations involved in the genre(aka-how things become mainstreamed).
 
Old 06-13-2010, 05:24 AM
 
Location: Lehigh Acres
1,777 posts, read 4,058,198 times
Reputation: 882
So the only way to help the ghettos is to brainwash the current residents, put teachers into the schools who want to teach the children, force the children to learn and stay in school, kill off all the drug dealers and gang bangers and put fathers back into homes? Oh, and blame it all on rap and white kids who buy it?
 
Old 06-13-2010, 08:06 AM
 
Location: East Coast
2,878 posts, read 4,390,279 times
Reputation: 4180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
You have to realize that many of the people in the ghetto have been poor for 10 generations or more. When you have been poor that long you learn how to cope and accept it. It’s all you know. You don’t know how to be anything else but poor because socialization manifest mostly via emulation of ones environment. So generation after generation people are socialized to be poor…and people accept it and find ways to be happy while poor….which traps them in poverty. It’s the ones who cannot cope or who get lucky, or who have some exceptional “gift” that makes it out and this group represents a minority.
^ This, this, this!!! I would also suggest that those who are fortunate enough to have a mentor, someone who believes in them, someone to look up to and aspire to emulate...they can make it out.

Reminds me of a quote from Maya Angelou: "You did then what you knew how to do. And when you knew better, you did better."
 
Old 06-13-2010, 08:15 AM
 
Location: East Coast
2,878 posts, read 4,390,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
Thanks much. You know…..I actually cried from my experience. I could not believe that I had come as far as I had. I often feel a tremendous amount of guilt….because there is nothing SPECIAL about me that make me any more deserving of this than the next guy. That’s what hurts the most. Sometimes when I sit back and look at my family, my job, my home….I can’t enjoy it because I just feel so much guilt for having what I have when so many have so much less.
Don't feel so guilty about your good fortune (eh, easy for me to say). But seriously, nobody handed your life to you on a silver platter, did they?

I'm sure you're an incredibly busy person, but some day if you want to do something constructive with that guilt...get involved in some type of mentor program for inner-city youth. You've been there...hopefully, they'll listen to you, and you could be that one influence who makes a difference in the life of an at-risk child.
 
Old 06-13-2010, 08:26 AM
 
Location: New Kensington (Parnassus) ,Pa
2,424 posts, read 1,813,267 times
Reputation: 603
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
When my wife was volunteering in a county jail GED program in Florida, she met almost every inmate in the jail over the course of a year. A lot of them were in there because of expired license plates or other vehicle infractions. Not one single rich person "forgot" to renew his plates, only poor people forget those things. Or else, only the poor ones were sent to jail, and the rich ones were given a warning ticket.

Don't feel so smug about being the only human being in the entire USA who has never, not even once, ever broken one single law. Every single morning, you wake the kids up and tell them go stand behind the Escalade, and tell you whether the brake lights are working. Oh, wait, you of the privileged class trade in for a new SUV every year, so the lights never get a chance to burn out. Rich people are not subject to that kind of heinous criminal activity worthy of lincarceration.
So you're saying we should just let people without registration, insurance and vehicle in disrepair because their poor??? How was it they afforded a vehicle in the first place?
 
Old 06-13-2010, 08:41 AM
miu
 
Location: MA/NH
16,469 posts, read 33,431,905 times
Reputation: 15203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
Why is it when black folks state the FACT of the racist history of this nation...and current racism....we are said to be Blaming, whinning, playing the race card....and NEVER said to be simply stating the facts.
But when the facts are already known and acknowledged by ALL, what is the point of repeating these facts ad nauseum?

And in many non-black people's opinion, these facts carry less and less weight as reasons for blacks' poor performance in current US society. Get over it already and move forward.

Quote:
I just have one question for people like OR, which they never answer. The question is this: Given the situation of the people in the ghetto, in particular the black people, do you feel that YOU or whites in general could do any better if you walked in their shoes and had parents, grand parents and ancestors exposed to what theirs were exposed to? If so....WHY? To me....people like OR does a lot of arm chair quarterbacking. Its easy to look from the outside in and say what should be done....but its a lot different when you are actually in the game.
Yes, as a non-black non-white person, I feel that had my family lived in a ghetto, we would have been well able to get out of the ghetto and function in the rest of society. Poor Asian immigrants do it all of the time. And one reason for that is that our culture admires academic excellence and hard work. We also uphold strong family values, marriage and children born within wedlock. To have children out of wedlock is to bring extreme shame upon the family. We also respect the elders in our family. We don't admire bling-wearing celebrities and we also abhor ghetto culture and rap music.
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