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Old 12-24-2008, 12:00 AM
 
Location: Boise
2,008 posts, read 2,908,938 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artsyguy View Post
You've been smoking it for 18 years. So in other words it is addictive.
So you're telling me that a 60 year old lady that still buys some wine now and then is an addict?
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Old 12-24-2008, 09:09 AM
 
Location: San Diego
2,518 posts, read 1,845,510 times
Reputation: 1298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rathagos View Post
The law that makes it illegal, does (in fact) stop people from using it. As a contractor on a military base, I know for a fact there are people I work with who admit having used it in their youth. They claim, as well, that if it was legalized, that they would start using it again. Of course, that's just a small sampling.

Since many jobs test randomly for drugs (including the THC in marijuana), it's not worth them losing their security clearances and military or civilian careers over. So they abstain. But, they make it clear they would start again should it ever become legalized.
They only abstain because of the fear of losing their job, which shows you that it's not addictive (they would use if not against the rules, my buddies who'd get stationed at Camp Pendleton would always want to smoke weed, but didn't simply because of the fear of getting in trouble.) and easy to abstain from. Plus, many of those young enlisted Navy boys (the 21 and under crowd) who don't smoke weed while on leave here in San Diego just choose to drink a gallon of vodka and pass out on a Tijuana sidewalk instead. That's so much safer. However, if marijuana were legalized and just a couple of those pass-out drunks made the switch to Marijuana, the effects would be positive on the Navy, not negative. Marijuana's side effects and consequences (aside from legal ones) are far less harmful than those of alcohol.

I also abstained from Marijuana use while I was in the Navy, but soon after signing my release I began to switch from alcohol to marijuana as my drug of choice. Look at my personal experiences with Alcohol and Marijuana and tell me which is more harmful: I've never driven anywhere when I felt too high to drive, I once had a DUI where I rolled my SUV because I thought I was sober enough to drive and not fall asleep at the wheel...I've never gotten into a fist-fight while high, I sent three people to the hospital in fights and had to be pulled off a bouncer by my friends when drinking at bars...I've been in several committed relationships since I switched including one that's still going after 3+ years, I woke up in really ugly women's beds after blacking out the night before on numerous occaisions luckily avoiding STDs in the process...I have never thrown up or blacked out on even the strongest hashish and pot in Amsterdam, I've got very few clear memories of my Freshman and Sophomore years of college and I ruined three sets of bed-sheets from the spins and the resulting vomiting. See where I'm getting at? On the one hand, we have alcohol, a major force in our economy (watch any televised sporting event, you'll see alcohol being advertised) and a pervasive menace on our society...on the other hand, we have Marijuana, a far less dangerous alternative. So if what you are saying is true, wouldn't we be better off if people switched from Alcohol to Marijuana? Wouldn't we all be safer?

Finally, Alcohol leads to dementia (Steve Dalkowski threw 110 miles per hour and alcohol made him into a derelict homeless man), liver disease, kidney failure, heart disease, horrific car accidents, child abuse, spousal abuse, fist-fights and loud-mouthed stupidity. If that's not only legal, but a major piece of our economy, why should we not allow something far less harmful to also contribute to the economy instead of taking away from it by creating a black market? That is what does not make sense to me. Even if you're against the use, it's used anyways, so you might as well benefit instead of suffer. I suffer because Cocaine is illegal. Not because I would ever use it, but because I have to pay taxes to arrest and incarcerate thousands in addition to the violence, gangs and crime associated with prohibition.
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Old 12-25-2008, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
209 posts, read 530,225 times
Reputation: 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
Can someone give one good argument as to why pot should not be legalized? I can't think of anything, the potential benefits as I see them are:

1.) Reduced speeding on law enforce related to pot.
2.) Tax revenue from growers and retailers which currently pay no taxes. You could also add additional taxes to retail sales much like the sale of tobacco products.
3.) Reduce drug related crime.
4.) Reduced the number of dangerous individuals coming into the country to smuggle drugs.
The only single reason pot should not be legal is if the majority of the public in a given country feel it should be illegal through their elected representatives through legislation. That is the true democratic republic (which is the correct definition of the sovereign status of the USA) process. If people want laws to change then they need to get involved with different movements to work with the community and build support for any effort they want to effect change on.

I am not trying to be a smart-ass by not addressing the question but what I have said is the essence of what needs to be done. Too many people sit back and not work towards things they feel near and dear too them, or know that something needs to be changed to the betterment of society. We are losing our future-outlook preference and that is changing the fabric of our society by changing the psychology to think only about the moment at hand and not the future. If we are making decisions that only address the current crisis then how can people plan for the future if even the most basic rules can be changed at a moments notice without any legitimate discussion? This is not the America I was brought up on and It's really saddening to watch us fall backwards so far in two crisis (9/11 and Great Depression II).

LJM
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Old 12-26-2008, 12:02 PM
 
Location: West Texas
2,441 posts, read 5,246,318 times
Reputation: 3094
Quote:
Originally Posted by leftydan6 View Post
They only abstain because of the fear of losing their job, which shows you that it's not addictive (they would use if not against the rules, my buddies who'd get stationed at Camp Pendleton would always want to smoke weed, but didn't simply because of the fear of getting in trouble.) and easy to abstain from.
My point had nothing to do with addiction. I've never claimed marijuana was addictive, and I know it's not unless extremely high quantities of THC were ingested into the body for prolonged periods of time. Don't know what you thought I was addressing, but it wasn't anything to do with addiction, it had to do with abstinence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leftydan6 View Post
Plus, many of those young enlisted Navy boys (the 21 and under crowd) who don't smoke weed while on leave here in San Diego just choose to drink a gallon of vodka and pass out on a Tijuana sidewalk instead. That's so much safer. However, if marijuana were legalized and just a couple of those pass-out drunks made the switch to Marijuana, the effects would be positive on the Navy, not negative. Marijuana's side effects and consequences (aside from legal ones) are far less harmful than those of alcohol.
You've got a point here. But moderation is moderation. You can't compare someone who binges on alcohol with someone who has only 1-2 joints. I agree that over the long term, alcohol reaps more negative effects on the body than marijuana, but because of the legal status of marijuana, there are insufficient studies to show long-term effects of HIGH amounts. THC levels were only studied in laboratory rats. But to say someone get's totally drunk near the level of alcohol poisoning (at least to the level of passing out) and how better they would be with one or two joints is an invalid argument. 1-2 drinks is no more devastating than 1-2 joints. Frequency, body composition, time between ingestion are all influenced in the overall assessment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leftydan6 View Post
I also abstained from Marijuana use while I was in the Navy, but soon after signing my release I began to switch from alcohol to marijuana as my drug of choice. Look at my personal experiences with Alcohol and Marijuana and tell me which is more harmful:
Common misconceptions about the physical/physiological effects of marijuana usage: the immune system will be impaired, birth defects will be more frequent, marijuana usage will cause the smoker to experiment with cocaine or heroin in the future.

However, there are some facts associated that are worth mentioning: driving ability will be seriously impaired, chances of getting cancer will be affected, and marijuana usage in teenagers will be preceded by alcohol and/or cigarettes.

Because most people think that marijuana chills you out and makes you lightly paranoid (true), it impairs your part of the brain that makes you realize you are impaired (there's often times the same thing in alcohol "I'm not too drunk to drive!!!"). So, believing you were driving fine, and doing so are two different things. And, once again, there's more than one individual smoking pot. You can't apply that anymore than you can apply your results in drinking to the other millions who drink alcohol also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leftydan6 View Post
Finally, Alcohol leads to dementia (Steve Dalkowski threw 110 miles per hour and alcohol made him into a derelict homeless man), liver disease, kidney failure, heart disease, horrific car accidents, child abuse, spousal abuse, fist-fights and loud-mouthed stupidity. If that's not only legal, but a major piece of our economy, why should we not allow something far less harmful to also contribute to the economy instead of taking away from it by creating a black market? That is what does not make sense to me.
I can't really comment on this. Again, given drink for joint, I believe that alcohol has the potential to be more damage. And, I would support making alcohol illegal for that purpose. But there will be too many who argue, rightfully so, against it (because of past experience). But I also believe we should learn from that same past experience to those that have died innocently from alcohol involvement. Yet, we still want to open that door again with marijuana. I believe that when society opens the door willinging for selfish purposed to mind altering (as well as behavior altering) drugs that have proven to impair driving capabilities, that will inevitably take the lives of innocent people. Nothing we do is as important as protecting society. When we put the need to alter our minds above the safety of society, aren't we missing something?
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Old 12-26-2008, 12:17 PM
 
Location: San Diego
2,518 posts, read 1,845,510 times
Reputation: 1298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rathagos View Post
My point had nothing to do with addiction. I've never claimed marijuana was addictive, and I know it's not unless extremely high quantities of THC were ingested into the body for prolonged periods of time. Don't know what you thought I was addressing, but it wasn't anything to do with addiction, it had to do with abstinence.


You've got a point here. But moderation is moderation. You can't compare someone who binges on alcohol with someone who has only 1-2 joints. I agree that over the long term, alcohol reaps more negative effects on the body than marijuana, but because of the legal status of marijuana, there are insufficient studies to show long-term effects of HIGH amounts. THC levels were only studied in laboratory rats. But to say someone get's totally drunk near the level of alcohol poisoning (at least to the level of passing out) and how better they would be with one or two joints is an invalid argument. 1-2 drinks is no more devastating than 1-2 joints. Frequency, body composition, time between ingestion are all influenced in the overall assessment.


Common misconceptions about the physical/physiological effects of marijuana usage: the immune system will be impaired, birth defects will be more frequent, marijuana usage will cause the smoker to experiment with cocaine or heroin in the future.

However, there are some facts associated that are worth mentioning: driving ability will be seriously impaired, chances of getting cancer will be affected, and marijuana usage in teenagers will be preceded by alcohol and/or cigarettes.

Because most people think that marijuana chills you out and makes you lightly paranoid (true), it impairs your part of the brain that makes you realize you are impaired (there's often times the same thing in alcohol "I'm not too drunk to drive!!!"). So, believing you were driving fine, and doing so are two different things. And, once again, there's more than one individual smoking pot. You can't apply that anymore than you can apply your results in drinking to the other millions who drink alcohol also.



I can't really comment on this. Again, given drink for joint, I believe that alcohol has the potential to be more damage. And, I would support making alcohol illegal for that purpose. But there will be too many who argue, rightfully so, against it (because of past experience). But I also believe we should learn from that same past experience to those that have died innocently from alcohol involvement. Yet, we still want to open that door again with marijuana. I believe that when society opens the door willinging for selfish purposed to mind altering (as well as behavior altering) drugs that have proven to impair driving capabilities, that will inevitably take the lives of innocent people. Nothing we do is as important as protecting society. When we put the need to alter our minds above the safety of society, aren't we missing something?
So basically you're saying that you think alcohol is more dangerous than marijuana and should be illegal too. Sure, that worked REALLY well in the 20s. If you look at nothing else, look at the Volstead Act and tell me that prohibition doesn't lead to crime, increased usage and massive costs associated with policing it. Our police forces were overrun by bootlegging and that allowed the Mafia to gain a foothold on America like never before. It's EXACTLY THE SAME WITH POT, except pot is less dangerous in every way.

If prohibition worked, why would we still have 1,000,000 people arrested each year for pot 70 years after it was made illegal? Why would it be the #3 cash crop in America? Pot is more valuable than Apples, Potatoes, Grapes and Oranges in terms of the sheer $ earned from production, yet it is untaxed. So you, as an anti-drug crusader, actually suffer from it being illegal. Instead of the state EARNING taxes that could lead to your taxes being cut, the state is SPENDING taxes to police something that will never be stopped and doesn't harm anyone.

In fact, I've found hot girls in short skirts walking down the street to be far more dangerous than smoking and driving. I certainly can't pay attention to the road when a hottie is walking alongside me, but I have no problem driving after I've smoked, as the 150,000 miles I've put on my cars without a single scratch since I started smoking pot would show. You know what else would keep people safe? HOUSE ARREST FOR EVERYONE. If people were locked up at home at all times, nobody would be hurt. Hey, with 1% of the country already locked up, maybe we're on the way there...
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Old 12-26-2008, 12:21 PM
 
16,438 posts, read 18,516,574 times
Reputation: 9490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
Can someone give one good argument as to why pot should not be legalized?
It would take the profit out of it and deprive many people of their income.

Last edited by Bideshi; 12-26-2008 at 01:36 PM..
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Old 12-27-2008, 04:24 AM
 
Location: Florida
18,290 posts, read 18,539,506 times
Reputation: 20968
"Nothing we do is as important as protecting society. "

All the laws and regulations in the world will not turn us into a Stepford Wives like society.
The best way to manage a problem is to deal with that fact.

However, if you peel the onion on the majority of our governments actions I doubt you'll find many that don't have the best interests of 'big money' at the core, not the interest of the general citizenry.
"For our good" is the marketing ploy to haul in votes and help legislations pass.
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Old 12-27-2008, 04:43 AM
 
Location: Southwestern Ohio
4,112 posts, read 5,726,154 times
Reputation: 1620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
It would take the profit out of it and deprive many people of their income.
Exactly, the war on drugs though unsuccessful is extremely profitable to our government so it will most likely never go away.

To the poster that said there were no long term studies, there was one done in Switzerland (I think) where they studied chronic users for 20 or 30 years(again it has been a long time since I read this).

I couldn't find that, but I did find this.
omcclub.com Marijuana Myths - Positive Facts (http://omcclub.com/57/marijuana-myths-positive-facts - broken link)

P.S. FYI: I'm a drinker not a smoker.
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Old 01-01-2009, 11:55 PM
 
423 posts, read 1,391,464 times
Reputation: 271
Deaths per year resulting from alcohol: 100,000
Deaths per year resulting from tobacco: 430,000
Deaths per year resulting from aspirin: 180- 1000
Deaths per year resulting from legal drugs: 106,000
Deaths that have ever occurred in direct result of Cannabis: 0
(that's right zero)
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Old 01-02-2009, 01:46 AM
 
542 posts, read 1,267,275 times
Reputation: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
1. Saying you should legalize pot b/c other bad things are legal is not a very good argument. You see how many problems are already caused by the other bad things (smoking, alcohol, etc).

2. Legalizing it may send the wrong message to our kids...like it's ok to recreationally use strong mind-altering substances.

3. You can drink without getting drunk. No point in smoking out if you don't get high. And the lack of coordination/poor judgement lasts a lot longer than when you're drunk on alcohol.
lack of coordination last a lot longer is preposterous. whens the last time you were drunk. it lasts for a long time. and when you have a hangover your mind certainly isn't right either.

marijuana lasts 2-4 hours depending on the quality.

p.s. the majority of people in the u.s. probably believe it should be legalized. all states that have brought legalizing for medical use to a vote have passed it. i believe it is not legal becausecompanies and insurance groups that give politicians funding don't want it to pass, thus politicians won't pass it.

Last edited by renter8319; 01-02-2009 at 02:00 AM..
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