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Old 10-25-2008, 08:59 PM
 
Location: San Antonio, TX
545 posts, read 2,058,334 times
Reputation: 210

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Here's what everyone is missing in this debate: McCain was an ACORN supporter very recently! This attack is just another distraction from the fact that his policies aren't what America wants or needs right now. If he had decent policies, he wouldn't have any need to attack his opponent personally.

Washington Wire - WSJ.com : Acorn Fires Back at McCain
Sen. McCain Stood With ACORN Rally In 2006 - Marc Ambinder (http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/10/a_lifetime_ago_sen_john.php - broken link)
ACORN to McCain: Have You Lost That Loving Feeling? - MarketWatch
LiveLeak.com - OOOPS!!! Acorn Releases 2006 Photo Of McCain at Acorn Event
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Old 10-25-2008, 09:49 PM
 
1,020 posts, read 1,432,001 times
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In Chicago, any organization involved in voter registration has the potential to get co-opted by Chicago Democratic Machine politics.

I don't have enough information to comment about Acorn in the rest of the country, but I have spent enough time in Chicago to suspect any organization helping people to vote in Chicago.
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Old 10-26-2008, 09:33 AM
 
34,990 posts, read 33,878,052 times
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I just hope by now that everyone realizes that voter registration fraud, perpetrated by lazy part-time workers waiting around for their paychecks does not affect elections.

Vote suppression does.

I notice that the specter of voter registration fraud is no longer in the news or (hence?) among the political talking points. No word about ACORN in the news for about a week now. Why is this, when ten days or so ago John McCain said that it "threatens to destroy the very fabric of democracy"?

That sounds pretty serious, doesnt it? I wonder what the silence could mean.
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Old 10-26-2008, 10:31 AM
 
Location: Not where you ever lived
11,544 posts, read 25,103,091 times
Reputation: 6189
Voter fraud has been a staple in American politics since the beginning of time. It is man's nature to want to best his foe by every means possible. Now that the party in power is losing power they are crying foul and trying to use ACORN as a scapegoat.

I think th ebiggest problem with Acorn is not the few slackers who are unknowingly paid after they turn in false registrations, but the fact that ACORN is a black organization that primarily registers poor folks of many colors to register and encourages them to do the same. Of the people ACORN hires, the percentage of cheats is small and getting smaller. ACORN does report and firle charges as volter fraud is a federal offense. They also presort the names of the folks they register into three piles before the names are submitted. [1] Registration they believe are good; [2] registrations names that might be questionable (John Smith, and [3] Obvious fraud {Mickey Mouse]. Of the millions of voters they register, the percentage of real fraud is less than 50,000 of over I.3m registrations they gathered - which is much lower count than the squeals and cries for RECOUNT we will hear on election day.

I have not forgotten what some of the Republican precincts did to first time black voters in Floriday. I especially the cops who racially profiled a handicapped, black, 80-year old, retired minister after he cast his first vote. The idea that white money can control the American voting boot MUST end.

A better solution is for ACORN to personally deliver those first time voters to the courthouse and help them register. It would end the Mickey and Minnie Mouse era of fraud. Fire election judges and replace them with attorneys. Put fedreal marshals in every voting place and state police deputized as fedreal marshals outside the perimeter. If this should happen it is unlikely boxes of uncounted ballots will be found in motel rooms and church basements like they were in 2000. The governor or each state needs to be personally responnsible for every ballot box delivered to his office and every vote he receives.

The problem with voter fraud is the penalty is not stiff enough and no one cares enough to stop it.
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Old 10-26-2008, 11:09 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,071,718 times
Reputation: 3717
Default Unbridled non-partisan biases!

Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Perfidious partisan pomposity. We are talking about people filling out a form. If "our democratic system" were so fragile as to be damaged by such a trivial thing, surely it would have collapsed long ago in the face of eight years worth of determined Republican efforts to steamroller it.

This owing in part to widespread reports of the recent past in which Republican-leaning registration drive operators simply threw forms marked with a preference for Democratic registration into the trash.


Illegal voting has nothing whatsoever to do with it. No one can vote unless first properly registered.

Oh? In WA St, we did have one Mickey Mouse, and a number of dead.. not people, but... dogs, voting for Ms. Gregoire in the last election! Not to mention felons and illegal aliens. No one was checking true eligibility. Not this time, so we'll probably see how "invalid" the problem was!

How massive do you imagine all this to be, Mr. Crocodile-Tears? ACORN conducts voter registration drives in the low- and moderate-income communities it has served for nearly 40 years.

Unbiased?


100% of your complaint against ACORN derives from the fact that likely Democratic voters outnumber likely Republican voters by a margin of some 4-to-1 in the communities that ACORN serves. You would merely like to see a population such as that kept from exercising its right to vote, and there is no other motivation to any of it at all.

Yes, we can certainly do better than listening to liars. Just see what eight years of doing that has gotten us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
Ill-natured flaming and name-calling on a serious topic? I thought this forum was supposed to be characterized by an increased level of civility.
[quote=Yeledaf;5854640] I wont dignify saganista's ill-mannered ad homnem approach any longer, but on the odd chance that you might be interested in something besides vulgar flame wars, consider this....

I now live in Washington state. Our Democrat governor was elected fraudulently in 2004. It is highly likely that that will be the case again this year.[quote]

Well, "Y", I just knew you had to be from out here, where men are still men and yah can carry a gun! Good writing and point-making, but avoid being baited by insults, I'm just sayin, "Y"... It'll only raise your blood pressure unnecessarily, and you might die. Which would only make the other side happy.

"Vulgar flame wars". Gotta love it. Can I use it?

Sang, despite your vituperative nature, you DO make some valid points. So I'd say, civilly, that through the actions of ACORN and other less-publicized voter registration groups on both sides, co-mingled with basic human nature and hubris (again, on both sides), there will be biased voter registration and therefore results. On both sides. There are a number of dis-advantaged Republicans out there also, agreed?

So perhaps this country should dis-allow ANY sort of private voter registration groups. Too ripe for fraud. Washington State's governor is a particularly egregious proven case of a result due to voter registration fraud (I know.. you disagree, but the recently announced (by the State, no less..) 450,000 duplicate / mythical / dead /illegal /felon voters registered in the last election? Most voting Dem? And she only won by 131 votes? With three forced recounts 'til they won, barely? (she lost on the first two, by waaayyy more than 131 votes. suspicious on its face?) How valid, then, was her "victory"? If that had been your dread Reps, what would you be saying? Honest now.

Can't we register folks when we do the next census? If they want to be registered? Here in WA ST this time we were all given the ability to mail-vote. No one who can read was denied, and disabled folks were also given special voting options. No voter left behind. This seems like a good system. What do you think, sang? Or is it better to bus them to the polling station, complete with "Vote Obama" or "Vote McCain" songs playing subliminally through the sound system?

And to another issue; it should be disallowed for the national lefty media to post state-by-state results in so geographically wide a country as this. It has a definite effect on those who haven't voted yet. In Canada, for instance (in one area I think they have a better idea) all voting results are confidential until the last voters in the west (B.C.) have voted. Unbiased. Unless one likes biases ?

Last edited by rifleman; 10-26-2008 at 11:13 AM.. Reason: typos
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Old 10-26-2008, 11:42 AM
 
19,183 posts, read 27,753,698 times
Reputation: 4000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
Ill-natured flaming and name-calling on a serious topic? I thought this forum was supposed to be characterized by an increased level of civility.
As the post never rose above the level of bombast and simple swill siphoned from the dismal swamp of the disinformation media, it hardly met any imagineable criteria for "Great Debate" to begin with. Your defense of it rises to no higher level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
Enjoy your monologue...
Monologue in that only illusion and deceit are raised against it. There is only so far that peevish propaganda can be pushed, and it seems you have hit the wall on this bit...
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Old 10-26-2008, 02:10 PM
 
19,183 posts, read 27,753,698 times
Reputation: 4000
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Sang, despite your vituperative nature, you DO make some valid points. So I'd say, civilly, that through the actions of ACORN and other less-publicized voter registration groups on both sides, co-mingled with basic human nature and hubris (again, on both sides), there will be biased voter registration and therefore results. On both sides.
No one is registered simply by filling out a form. No vote may be cast except through having first been validly registered. In between the form and the ballot are a bevy of fact-checkers (including those at ACORN) who screen all registration forms, purge duplicate and other erroneous forms, and record valid applications as newly registered voters. There are typically further safeguards in requiring a matching ID before a ballot can be cast. Claims that error rates in anyone's registration forms comprise a threat to our democratic system are pure partisan hooey. If you find that to be vituperative also, I will only say that far more charity would have been accorded to such ramblings had there been the merest, barest thread of credibility to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
There are a number of dis-advantaged Republicans out there also, agreed?
And any of them could have registered through any ACORN-sponsored voter registration drive or through any of the many hundreds of identical drives conducted by other civic-minded individuals and organizations all over the country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
So perhaps this country should dis-allow ANY sort of private voter registration groups. Too ripe for fraud.
What fraud? Have any charges ever been brought against any ACORN affiliate in this regard? Is there evidence out there you could provide of any actual vote being cast as the result of a fraudulent registration card submitted by ACORN? I don't think so. I think you and others like the idea of fraud, so you suggest it despite the lack of any evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Can't we register folks when we do the next census?
The census is a federal project. Elections are a state project. A census is taken every ten years. Election Day occurs every year. People move every year. People turn 18 every year. People become new citizens every year. We might actually need a very different system from the one you propose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Here in WA ST this time we were all given the ability to mail-vote. No one who can read was denied, and disabled folks were also given special voting options. No voter left behind. This seems like a good system. What do you think...
Such systems are to date an experiment. The early returns look promising in some ways. More data are needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Or is it better to bus them to the polling station, complete with "Vote Obama" or "Vote McCain" songs playing subliminally through the sound system?
LOL. Voter registration and voter turnout efforts are two completely different things. The two cannot (in most states) occur any less than four weeks apart. No one who registers through anybody is obliged in any way to ride on anybody's bus, to listen to anybody's alleged subliminal influences, or to vote on any other basis than what are the dictates of his or her own conscience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
And to another issue; it should be disallowed for the national lefty media to post state-by-state results in so geographically wide a country as this. It has a definite effect on those who haven't voted yet. In Canada, for instance (in one area I think they have a better idea) all voting results are confidential until the last voters in the west (B.C.) have voted. Unbiased. Unless one likes biases ?
National lefty media? Are you suggesting that FOX News should be excluded from such a ban, or suggesting that FOX News is a part of the national lefty media? Meanwhile, instead of British Columbia, the US has Hawaii. That's a little different. And of course, nobody reports on any state until its polls have closed, which is no earlier that 4:00 pm on the west coast. The only voters there who can be influenced at all by early east coast returns are those who don't vote earlier in the day and then deliberately turn on some media outlet in order to see how things are going. How about a little Personal Responsibility® here. Don't want to know? Vote early, or don't tune in until you have voted. That seems as sensible to me as asking that the media deliberately hide facts that are already known from the rest of us over the course of several hours.
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Old 10-26-2008, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,071,718 times
Reputation: 3717
Default You may be right. Or left.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
What fraud? Have any charges ever been brought against any ACORN affiliate in this regard? Is there evidence out there you could provide of any actual vote being cast as the result of a fraudulent registration card submitted by ACORN? I don't think so. I think you and others like the idea of fraud, so you suggest it despite the lack of any evidence.

Actually, I really DON'T like the idea of fraud, unlike "the others". And since I can't be an expert in EVERYTHING, I, like you no doubt, do rely on the national lefty and lonely-righty media to report some things to me. Even the lefties have noted some possible hanky-panky, ,and others in these threads and posts have noted their past employment with ACORN. and how corrupt it was/is.

So I come to some conclusions. Are all of your info sources inviolate? I suppose I can start some serious research on this. Will I find nothing suspicious?



The census is a federal project. Elections are a state project. A census is taken every ten years. Election Day occurs every year. People move every year. People turn 18 every year. People become new citizens every year. We might actually need a very different system from the one you propose.

But we apparently DO need some other system, one that generates less distrust.

National lefty media? Are you suggesting that FOX News should be excluded from such a ban, or suggesting that FOX News is a part of the national lefty media?

Yep, even them. Fair, balanced and all. No preliminary results. That way no one is unduly influenced to be on the winning team or whatever. It's a known phenomenon, so why encourage it? In other simpler words, can you and I trust our fellow idiots to do things exactly right and ethical?

By the way, don't paint me with a Republican brush. They've really "messed the nest". If anything, I'm possibly a environmental-constitutionalist-Libertarian. So not a chance of a snowball in heck of EVER seeing a rational third party of my liking here. Sad.

How about a little Personal Responsibility® here.
Hasen't worked for us yet. Too trusting and ethical.

Some thoughtful points though, as usual.
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Old 10-27-2008, 04:33 PM
 
19,183 posts, read 27,753,698 times
Reputation: 4000
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Actually, I really DON'T like the idea of fraud, unlike "the others". And since I can't be an expert in EVERYTHING, I, like you no doubt, do rely on the national lefty and lonely-righty media to report some things to me. Even the lefties have noted some possible hanky-panky, ,and others in these threads and posts have noted their past employment with ACORN. and how corrupt it was/is. So I come to some conclusions. Are all of your info sources inviolate? I suppose I can start some serious research on this. Will I find nothing suspicious?
To clarify, I was suggesting that some would require no evidence at all before concluding that ACORN was some sort of domestic al Qaeda. There are likely a few among them who believe that ACORN was co-founded by Rev. Wright and Bill Ayers.

Aside from the Washington Post, which happens to be my local paper, I am not a consumer of any national news media at all. I don't know of any that does a credible job. CSPAN and NPR do a credible job of covering current events, especially when they put a microphone in front of principals and other front-line people, but tracking down second and third sources is still the order of the day.

On that basis, I am not aware of any credible suggestion of vote-related hanky-panky by ACORN. They recruited 13,000 part-time field people to work on voter registration. Those who are paid are all paid by the hour. When better than ten thousand people are working with better than one million forms, many errors will occur. This is not an outrage, it is a given. The same errors occur in every significant voter registration drive, no matter who conducts it. The right-wing spinsters and their assorted bots are trying to create a controversy where none actually exists. ACORN itself has never been cited for improper actions. They have, however, been cited by boards of election for the effectiveness of their own pre-screening. Of those which have been traceable, the vast majority of cards that the right-wing has complained over have come from among those that ACORN itself had marked as questionable, but which they were obligated to turn in anyway under applicable state law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
But we apparently DO need some other system, one that generates less distrust.
The distrust is created entirely by partisan attack, misrepresentation, and innuendo. There IS no system which will be safe from that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Yep, even them. Fair, balanced and all. No preliminary results. That way no one is unduly influenced to be on the winning team or whatever. It's a known phenomenon, so why encourage it?
I understand the argument, I just don't agree with it. People on the west coast learn to live with NFL football games that start at 10:00 am. It would seem to me that they could easily enough adapt to early election results being available at 4:00 pm. I would rather see that than insist that nobody in the east know anything at all until 11:00 pm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Some thoughtful points though, as usual.
That seems to me to be the point of the place. I do what I can, but the snark-boys and their propaganda feeds don't help me out much...or anyone else.
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Old 10-27-2008, 05:19 PM
 
6,011 posts, read 6,731,115 times
Reputation: 739
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitt_transplant View Post
Correct me if I am wrong but it was individuals that went out and didnt do the work they were suppose to and got false sigs...Sounds like someone cheating and blowing off work. But they were all fired right away.

make a group of anything and there will be a bad apple.
Humans are evil
Its what we do

dont individuals make extra money by signing up more people? if so this is probably what lead to fraud
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