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Old 02-05-2009, 03:55 PM
 
3,651 posts, read 8,111,745 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ESFP View Post
Responsibility is the factor. Some 18-yr. old people can go to war, but not all of them. I agree with the 21-yr minimum, but for civilians. Anyone with a military ID should be able to drink, even at 17. They are a select few who have proven responsibility and character. They should be rewarded with certain unique priviliges.
You must have had very limited exposure in your life to the military. As a career man, I can assure you that just because someone is in the military doesn't mean they are going to drink responsibly - to say the least! They don't have enlisted and officer clubs on every base just to sit around and sip tea yknow. (I will say I think it's better than it used to be now that the military (FINALLY) has cracked down more on DUIs, etc)

And again, nobody is forced into the military, so this "if they serve they can drink" just doesn't hold up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday View Post
An 18 year old can marry without parental consent - yet, they cannot have a champagne toast - does that seem correct?
No, great point. For crying out loud, jack up the marrying age. Marrying at 18 is also not exactly brilliant.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KarenBo View Post
I also agree with the post about drinking losing its mystique when its no longer forbidden. If young people were allowed to experience responsible drinking under the supervision of their parents, it wouldn't be such a novelty.
Yeah that's what every teenager wants: to hang out and drink and party with their friends.....and parents. Good luck w/that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by leftydan6 View Post
All the 21 year age does is encourage binge drinking.
Sorry but that and this whole "forbidden fruit" angle is totally invalid. If you've never really drank or got drunk, I can see that, but that fades quickly, and generally people - even teenagers - don't drink to "get away with something," they do it because they enjoy it. Either they enjoy the buzz, or enjoy it because they think it makes them "cool" (ie more accepted by a group), etc etc.

Last edited by joey2000; 02-05-2009 at 04:10 PM..

 
Old 02-05-2009, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
3,196 posts, read 4,715,448 times
Reputation: 976
Alcohol is from Satan.
Ban alcohol from sale or manufacture.

(or maybe we should be more concerned about other things?)
 
Old 02-05-2009, 04:23 PM
 
3,651 posts, read 8,111,745 times
Reputation: 2747
Quote:
Originally Posted by grmasterb View Post
Any stats showing that DUI deaths decreased among 18-21 year olds after the drinking age was raised across the nation could be just as attributable to awareness efforts and better DUI enforcement, not necessarily less drinking by underage individuals.
Yeah, what a coincedence that they happened at the same time. Now there's intellectual dishonesty.


Quote:
Besides, it's intellectually dishonest to infer that someone is mature enough to join the military and sign a legally-binding contract, yet they aren't mature enough to handle an alcoholic beverage.
Again w/the military thing...geez you guys love that angle

Kudos to anyone who does so and God love em, but joining the military and drinking responsibly are not tied at the hip. PLENTY of immature people join the military, believe me, and more than a few drink irresponsibly (and do a wide variety of other irresponsible/stupid things).
 
Old 02-05-2009, 04:26 PM
 
3,651 posts, read 8,111,745 times
Reputation: 2747
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcashley View Post
Alcohol is from Satan.
Nah. God made all the grapes and gave man the intelligence to figure out fermentation. Plus Jesus drank wine; good enough for me.


Quote:
(or maybe we should be more concerned about other things?)
Like-? And why can't we do both?
 
Old 02-05-2009, 04:38 PM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
3,196 posts, read 4,715,448 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bill545 View Post
Nah. God made all the grapes and gave man the intelligence to figure out fermentation. Plus Jesus drank wine; good enough for me.


Like-? And why can't we do both?

OK....let's do both. (are we still talking about drinking?)
 
Old 02-05-2009, 07:52 PM
 
Location: Fishers, IN
6,495 posts, read 10,462,259 times
Reputation: 4036
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill545 View Post
Yeah, what a coincedence that they happened at the same time. Now there's intellectual dishonesty.
So, which is it? Did DUI deaths decrease because fewer young folks were drinking, or because of better DUI enforcement??


Quote:
Originally Posted by bill545 View Post
Again w/the military thing...geez you guys love that angle

Kudos to anyone who does so and God love em, but joining the military and drinking responsibly are not tied at the hip. PLENTY of immature people join the military, believe me, and more than a few drink irresponsibly (and do a wide variety of other irresponsible/stupid things).
Thanks for enlightening me there. Plenty of immature folks sign legally-binding contracts, too. That's not the point. The point is that, in the eyes of the law, we view them as competent to do so. Why, therefore, are they not also competent enough to drink alcohol?

More bluntly, who really believes the 21-year-old drinking age really deters those under 21 from drinking? What about countries with much lower drinking ages, namely those in Europe? It doesn't seem to be as much of an issue there.
 
Old 02-06-2009, 09:28 AM
 
3,651 posts, read 8,111,745 times
Reputation: 2747
Quote:
Originally Posted by grmasterb View Post
So, which is it? Did DUI deaths decrease because fewer young folks were drinking, or because of better DUI enforcement??
The first one at a minimum but better enforcement may or may not have played a part. And why do you consider these mutually exclusive?

Quote:
Thanks for enlightening me there. Plenty of immature folks sign legally-binding contracts, too. That's not the point.
It is precisely my point, ie you said someone mature enough to join the military is mature enough to handle drinking. I'm pointing out that joining the military doesn't mean someone is mature enough to drink responsibly, or necessarily mature at all.

Quote:
The point is that, in the eyes of the law, we view them as competent to do so. Why, therefore, are they not also competent enough to drink alcohol?
Take a look at the statistics on drunk drivers, casualties, etc for one glaring answer. ie far too many prove time and again they are not.

Quote:
More bluntly, who really believes the 21-year-old drinking age really deters those under 21 from drinking?
It's common sense. Just because it's not a perfect solution doesn't mean it's worthless. Or do you really think jacking up the drinking age doesn't have a deterrant effect? Not everyone is willing to break the law or try to "get away" with it - plus of those that do, some will be caught.

Quote:
What about countries with much lower drinking ages, namely those in Europe? It doesn't seem to be as much of an issue there.
Except we aren't talking about them, we're talking about the USA (or so I assumed, anyway). Regardless - again because it "works" for one country doesn't mean it works for another.
 
Old 02-06-2009, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Fishers, IN
6,495 posts, read 10,462,259 times
Reputation: 4036
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill545 View Post
It's common sense.
No, it's delusion. If I follow your premise, then we could eliminate DUI deaths altogether by simply outlawing alcohol. You may be aware that we tried that once. It didn't work.

What will work, IMO, is for parents to teach responsible drinking. You can't wait until age 21 to start that. The reason it works in other countries is because they can start younger at home. It's not taboo like it is here. The problem is our culture.

Moreover, and as I've tried to get across to you, it's inconsistent with other laws that view youngsters as competent to make decisions with respect to military service, contracts and political leadership at 18. It's bizarre and nonsensical.
 
Old 02-06-2009, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
3,196 posts, read 4,715,448 times
Reputation: 976
Well, in my experience, and thinking back to when I was 18---
18 year olds are not mature enough to get married.
18 year olds are not mature enough to run companies.
18 year olds are not mature enough to make major life decisions.

But we let them do it anyway....what is wrong with us?
 
Old 02-06-2009, 03:12 PM
 
3,651 posts, read 8,111,745 times
Reputation: 2747
Quote:
Originally Posted by grmasterb View Post
No, it's delusion. If I follow your premise, then we could eliminate DUI deaths altogether by simply outlawing alcohol.
That is not my premise. Once more: no one is claiming a perfect solution. But if we outlawed alcohol altogether, DUI deaths would absolutely go down. That's like saying water is wet. I can't believe you don't get this, but whatever, agree to disagree I guess.

Quote:
What will work, IMO, is for parents to teach responsible drinking. You can't wait until age 21 to start that.
Agree 110% at least. That is also not a perfect solution (there is no such thing) but is huge. And don't even get me started on the hoardes of people who should've never been allowed to reproduce out there.

Quote:
Moreover, and as I've tried to get across to you, it's inconsistent with other laws that view youngsters as competent to make decisions with respect to military service, contracts and political leadership at 18. It's bizarre and nonsensical.
I don't buy saving lives as bizarre or nonsensical in the least and again I disagree w/this "they can do this so why not that" logic. It simply doesn't follow through. They can't because they have on the whole proven too many of them aren't capable of it, that's why.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dcashley View Post
Well, in my experience, and thinking back to when I was 18---
18 year olds are not mature enough to get married.
18 year olds are not mature enough to run companies.
18 year olds are not mature enough to make major life decisions.

But we let them do it anyway....what is wrong with us?
We're stupid.
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