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Old 10-30-2008, 04:00 PM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,941,190 times
Reputation: 3848

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
Sorry, I disagree. As a person who works as a handyman, unpaid, for the landlord at the trailer park I live in, I think it's of GREAT benefit to him to have ME do it instead of paying someone an outrageous amount to do the same work.
You do get paid for your other work, don't you? I mean, this is awkward, but you brought up your personal life -- what do you live on? Does your landlord feed you too? If you have a car, did your landlord buy it, and does he pay your insurance? Does he pay for your health care? Or are you, in fact, working somewhere in exchange for actual money? I mean, being a trailer park handyman isn't your full-time job -- is it? How would you feel if you were replaced in your full-time job by someone who worked unpaid? I mean, whether what you earn is "outrageous" or not, it's still a lot more than what your customers would pay to someone who worked for free -- isn't it?

And by the way -- I am not disputing that working for free is of great benefit to the employer. What I am saying is that it is of no benefit to those workers who cannot afford to donate their labor -- and certainly of no benefit to the economy, if it is saddled with staggering unemployment.

Last edited by Redisca; 10-30-2008 at 04:08 PM..
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Old 10-30-2008, 04:02 PM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,941,190 times
Reputation: 3848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lulu101 View Post
What about all the lawsuits that result from untrained service people doing shoddy workmanship?
I would worry less about the lawsuits and more about all the injuries. The free labor would generate savings for employers that would probably outweigh the costs of defending all those lawsuits (remember Ford Pinto?), but the burden to society because of all the people maimed would be incalculable.
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Old 10-30-2008, 04:05 PM
 
451 posts, read 1,097,198 times
Reputation: 215
We are looking way to deep into this. There are so many small projects that could be done in each city. As far as room and board, what is keeping them from the home they are currently in. I wasn't talking about sending people all over the country. Maybe other parts of there own state. There are Roads that need potholes filled in that the cities can't afford. Small children that need mentorship. Community centers that need volenteers. I would hope that they are kept away from "corperate america" as much as possible. A lot of the jobs would be crappy, but in turn they would learn so much into keeping things up, and not destroying and defacing so much of what we have in society. So when they make it to college at 20, they have somewhat a better understanding of the world. I'm willing to even bet that graudation rates would soar.
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Old 10-30-2008, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,236 posts, read 40,285,245 times
Reputation: 10915
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
You do get paid for your other work, don't you? I mean, this is awkward, but you brought up your personal life -- what do you live on? Does your landlord feed you too? If you have a car, did your landlord buy it, and does he pay your insurance? Does he pay for your health care? Or are you, in fact, working somewhere in exchange for actual money? I mean, being a trailer park handyman isn't your full-time job -- is it? How would you feel if you were replaced in your full-time job by someone who worked unpaid? I mean, whether what you earn is "outrageous" or not, it's still a lot more than what your customers would pay to someone who worked for free -- isn't it?

And by the way -- I am not disputing that working for free is of great benefit to the employer. What I am saying is that it is of no benefit to those workers who cannot afford to donate their labor -- and certainly of no benefit to the economy, if it is saddled with staggering unemployment.
Certainly, I do have another job...but if my landlord let me live here rent free and provided groceries instead, I wouldn't NEED a job. There are times, however, when I've worked for a job, and NOT been paid for my time. I didn't care though--I don't consider my time particularly valuable. I work because I take PRIDE in my work--the wage is really immaterial.
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Old 10-30-2008, 06:27 PM
 
Location: Southern Maine, Greater Portland
511 posts, read 774,896 times
Reputation: 512
The High School that my children attended required each student to complete 30 hours of community service as a requirement to graduate. They served those in need and learned the value of their time and not necessarily just their money. We all have something to give no matter how big or small, it all makes a difference.
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:27 PM
 
3,413 posts, read 6,316,691 times
Reputation: 1410
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
"Arbeit macht frei" were the words that hung at the entrance to Auschwitz and a number of other Nazi death and labor camps. I don't like the bring up Nazis in an argument, but it just so happens that their ideal of forcing people to work for "room and board" (if you want to call camp accommodations that) then claim that prisoners should like it is quite relevant here. What you wrote is exactly what a totalitarian Party Secretary or a gulag PR officer would say. It isn't for the government to determine what someone's desirable end is and what they should take pride in. If someone wants to be a bum, he should have the right to do so. Even when work is a desirable end, it should be voluntary, of one's choosing, and paid at free market rate. Higher education is a desirable end too and something to take pride in (though I understand it's fashionable today to trash educated people). If someone wants to go to school instead of working, he should be able to do so on his own terms and when he so chooses. This is supposed to be a liberal society, after all, one that respects the individual. What people "take pride in" is not the process of labor itself, but what they have established with their own two hands, and the path they've crafted for themselves in life -- and thus, no self-respecting individual can possibly "take pride" in something that was thrust upon him for above, and something in which he had no choice in the first place.
Wow! Great answer! Great post! Rep coming.
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:32 PM
 
3,413 posts, read 6,316,691 times
Reputation: 1410
Quote:
Originally Posted by B.H81 View Post
We are looking way to deep into this. There are so many small projects that could be done in each city. As far as room and board, what is keeping them from the home they are currently in. I wasn't talking about sending people all over the country. Maybe other parts of there own state. There are Roads that need potholes filled in that the cities can't afford. Small children that need mentorship. Community centers that need volenteers. I would hope that they are kept away from "corperate america" as much as possible. A lot of the jobs would be crappy, but in turn they would learn so much into keeping things up, and not destroying and defacing so much of what we have in society. So when they make it to college at 20, they have somewhat a better understanding of the world. I'm willing to even bet that graudation rates would soar.
Redisca did such a beautiful job at explaining why this is a bad idea. Which of his points do you disagree with and why?
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Old 10-31-2008, 08:26 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA
392 posts, read 1,262,918 times
Reputation: 260
I think mandatory military service is a bad idea. Some people simply have no business being in the military, and the military is better off without them. Of course, I'm sure some volunteers are not fit for military service, but at least they are there of their own free will. That should make some difference with their attitude. Filling the military ranks with people who don't have the aptitude for military service, and who don't want to be there, can't be good for the quality of the military itself.

I think the only exception is in the case of a very big war, where a draft is needed.
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Old 11-01-2008, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Penobscot Bay, the best place in Maine!
1,891 posts, read 5,149,899 times
Reputation: 2627
Back on to the theory that service would mean community or civil service and NOT military service....

I think it would be great as an optional program in which some graduates would opt for a year or 2 of civil service and in return get grants and scholarships for their post-secondary educations.
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Old 11-03-2008, 03:05 PM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,941,190 times
Reputation: 3848
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
Certainly, I do have another job...but if my landlord let me live here rent free and provided groceries instead, I wouldn't NEED a job. There are times, however, when I've worked for a job, and NOT been paid for my time. I didn't care though--I don't consider my time particularly valuable. I work because I take PRIDE in my work--the wage is really immaterial.
So you wouldn't mind if the government required you to work for room and board in a job that the government decided you should be working? And by the way, you say that you wouldn't need a job if your landlord provided you with housing and food. What about the cost of clothing and laundry? Who would provide you with that? What about health insurance? I'm sure you have the health of Superman, but come on, anyone can break a leg. What about your car and gas? Or any mode of transportation? What if you had children -- how would you provide for them? And what options for self-realization would you have if you had no choice in what to do, where to work, or seek better opportunities? And while it would be great for the landlord -- how is it fair to you? What justification is there to require working people to make gifts to business owners?

By the way -- I find the statements that you take pride in your work yet do not value your time mutually exclusive, but whatever.
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