Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I have been examining this issue for quite some time now, and have come to the conclusion that the division between management and workers has become a huge problem in the American workplace. Both sides have drawn lines that keep the respective parties stuck in place, so to speak, and constrict the potential for real productivity. Management has become an enigmatic presence to those who perform the actual work, and on the flipside, those at the top view workers as an expendable commodity, as easily replaced as the paper in a copier. Advancement through experience is almost impossible, unless a piece of paper from some college or another is added onto an employees file, and the course of study is not even required to be related to the business involved. Thus, someone with a college degree in sociology, could easily be given a top management position with a company that specializes in electrical systems and a line foreman with 20+ years of installing these systems would be passed over, with disdain, for the same job. This has led to many experienced workers, who may not be whiz bang in a classroom, but are top hands in thier field, to languish in coveralls when thier skills could be extremely valuable in a leadership role. On the other end, people with zero experience in the fields they were hired to supervise, but who are intelligent, are placed in a positon to 'supervise' these experinced personell. The result is a disaster, in many situations, as heads are going to bang, as the 'educated' supervisor, attempts to break into the field. Now, don't get me wrong, I believe in education, but all to often, anymore, a degree is used as a license for a pompous attitude, and hard headed field hands, are viewing having an education as being tatamount to being an arrogant and inflexible ass, and do not pursue education themselves. Personally, I do not believe that one need have to have a degree to be an effective manager, experience does count for more, in my book, than a GPA and a degree in whatever. So, my question boils down to this; Does the dividing wall between a manageing group, and a workforce need to be as rigid and entrenched as it is now, or should both sides be more flexible in understanding the roles played by each end, and be more open to input from each source? Should companies be more strict in who is hired for a management position, and look at degrees a bit closer before putting people in oversight positions of workers? Finally, should workers (particularly union workers) be less critical, and more proactive (should the wall that is the subject of this thread be torn down) in the operations of the companies they work for? This is a very brief and general assessment of things, and, verily, I am open to more talking points, so , please, indulge yourselves.............
Does the dividing wall between a manageing group, and a workforce need to be as rigid and entrenched as it is now, or should both sides be more flexible in understanding the roles played by each end, and be more open to input from each source?
I think that as long as one side only does the hiring and firing, it will be difficult to break down the dividing wall. As of today, our schools in Broward county will be firing PE, music and art teachers, the workers, and leave management, administration alone.
Quote:
Should companies be more strict in who is hired for a management position, and look at degrees a bit closer before putting people in oversight positions of workers?
This might be the exception rather than the rule, but an anthropologist came up with the idea for the big, green key on Xerox machines. Well, at least that was what our professor told us. A college diploma can mean different things to different employers. Some employers see individuals who finish college capable of writing, thinking, researching and completing goals.
Quote:
Finally, should workers (particularly union workers) be less critical, and more proactive (should the wall that is the subject of this thread be torn down) in the operations of the companies they work for?
I think it is good for all workers to experience most, if not all, areas of a company.
Managers job (not speaking of bonuses) depends directly on how much they can squeeze and screw the guys below. In its turn, managers are not gods and also get screwed. Everybody is a slave, albeit differently compensated, to invisible masters. Yup, let's be one big understanding family
A college degree as a ticket to promotion is a direct result of standardization, specialization, bureaucratization and impersonalization of the corporate world. There are strict guidelines instead of personal decisions covering up rampant responsibility avoidance. Everybody scared about his job, personal decisions are dangerous no matter how much sense they may make. Following guidelines is safe. Having a college degree is a good parameter for automated decision making processes, everybody (on top) is happy and safe.
I don't think management and labor have ever shared a common interest, labor is subjected to the business maxim that dictates nothing short of maximum profit be expected from labor. With that in mind it's easy to see the outcome of the decades long friction between the two parties.
The historical role of management as overseer has also skewed the relationship, labor has always been in a subordinate role regardless of the ineptitude of mangement. The Toyota production system was designed to allow the worker a greater lattitude at the shop floor level of decision making, it did work for a while but even the Japanese aren't above pitting worker against worker in a dog eat dog enviroment that may not have produced the best possible product after all.
Boeing for example used to hire their shop level supervisors from the ranks of the unionized workers, this was a good system until the business practices of upper management were seen as a thing that the shop supervisors must understand in order to communicate on a common level. The infatuation with a college degree has been largely the result of a dismal US educational system that is unable to prepare a lot of the young for any task other than the mundane kinds.
That rare individual graduating from high school today that can and will show promise for future promotion is in too short a supply to fill the managerial needs of most industries. College today means that you can spell adequately and hopefully construct a complete sentence, beyond that the college prepared manager must be specifcally trained to do those tasks that will be required in addition to those college aquired skills.
Most large busness constructs allow for a technical lead kind of setup thereby allowing the boss to concentrate on those production performance metrics that their furure depends on. The Japanese have long advocated for the condensing of mangerial levels in all manufacturing systems, they can and do follow this principle for the fact that they have achieved a superior advantage in the form of their public school student expectations.
In his book' The End of Work, Jeremy Rifkin has pointed out the eventual scenario that will prevail, machines will become the new proletariat, bosses of course have never been seen as a true value added entity, so machine utilization will sound the death knell for them as well.
Much has been written about the possibility of "joint programs" between unions and their corporate bossses, my own opinion is that these kinds of get along go along attempts will eventually fall victim to the bottom line thinking of western corporate giants who have had some bad historical precedents dogging their newfound love of the proles. The wall is essentially between capital and labor not labor and management. In the eyes of capital they're both labor...........
Im not going to read your runon paragraph. However, if the employees have good ideas and prove results, then they should show the management and then, and only then will the management be willing to work WITH their employees.
This gap will continue to exist as long as people mistake responsibility for privilege and elevation. When we finally learn that ALL Life is to be HONORED, and ALL people are EQUAL, the issue will disappear. Until then, the conflicts are how we learn we've still got it wrong.
I have been examining this issue for quite some time now, and have come to the conclusion that the division between management and workers has become a huge problem in the American workplace. Both sides have drawn lines that keep the respective parties stuck in place, so to speak, and constrict the potential for real productivity. Management has become an enigmatic presence to those who perform the actual work, and on the flipside, those at the top view workers as an expendable commodity, as easily replaced as the paper in a copier. Advancement through experience is almost impossible, unless a piece of paper from some college or another is added onto an employees file, and the course of study is not even required to be related to the business involved. Thus, someone with a college degree in sociology, could easily be given a top management position with a company that specializes in electrical systems and a line foreman with 20+ years of installing these systems would be passed over, with disdain, for the same job. This has led to many experienced workers, who may not be whiz bang in a classroom, but are top hands in thier field, to languish in coveralls when thier skills could be extremely valuable in a leadership role. On the other end, people with zero experience in the fields they were hired to supervise, but who are intelligent, are placed in a positon to 'supervise' these experinced personell. The result is a disaster, in many situations, as heads are going to bang, as the 'educated' supervisor, attempts to break into the field. Now, don't get me wrong, I believe in education, but all to often, anymore, a degree is used as a license for a pompous attitude, and hard headed field hands, are viewing having an education as being tatamount to being an arrogant and inflexible ass, and do not pursue education themselves. Personally, I do not believe that one need have to have a degree to be an effective manager, experience does count for more, in my book, than a GPA and a degree in whatever. So, my question boils down to this; Does the dividing wall between a manageing group, and a workforce need to be as rigid and entrenched as it is now, or should both sides be more flexible in understanding the roles played by each end, and be more open to input from each source? Should companies be more strict in who is hired for a management position, and look at degrees a bit closer before putting people in oversight positions of workers? Finally, should workers (particularly union workers) be less critical, and more proactive (should the wall that is the subject of this thread be torn down) in the operations of the companies they work for? This is a very brief and general assessment of things, and, verily, I am open to more talking points, so , please, indulge yourselves.............
You're obviously on the blue-collar side of things.
It needs to be remembered that not everybody can do every job. The line foreman with 20+ years of experience may know absolutely nothing about modern business accounting, so it would be silly to move him out of a job he's good at and into a job he can't do. Everybody loses in that scenario.
People should also realize that people in the blue-collar labor force often make more money than the white collar desk jockeys. The fact that a guy is sitting at a desk does not mean he makes more than the guy wearing a tool belt. In fact, the exact opposite is often true.
It's also worth noting that union workers are notorious for being lazy, dishonest, doing shoddy work, and demanding huge raises from companies that are often going broke. Obviously not all union workers are like this, but there's a reason for the reputation. While unionization has been very good (in most cases) it has also made it possible for a worker to be worse that worthless, but in a position where he/she cannot be fired.
The bottom line is that every company (except taxpayers supported ones) is in business to make money. Everybody in the company is part of that process. The salesman, out on the road, selling the product is no more or less important than the guy in a shop who's machining parts. The nerdling who's filing all the correct forms, with all the right numbers in the right places, is no more or less important than the delivery guy. If/when one part of the company fails, the whole company is apt to fail.
Managers job (not speaking of bonuses) depends directly on how much they can squeeze and screw the guys below. In its turn, managers are not gods and also get screwed. Everybody is a slave, albeit differently compensated, to invisible masters. Yup, let's be one big understanding family
A college degree as a ticket to promotion is a direct result of standardization, specialization, bureaucratization and impersonalization of the corporate world. There are strict guidelines instead of personal decisions covering up rampant responsibility avoidance. Everybody scared about his job, personal decisions are dangerous no matter how much sense they may make. Following guidelines is safe. Having a college degree is a good parameter for automated decision making processes, everybody (on top) is happy and safe.
Wow. Thank you, Mr Marx.
Next time you need to see a doctor, make sure you go to one who never went to med school. College degrees are, after all, is nothing but a way of protecting Da Man.
Every job has a job description. when I am hired, there is an agreement that I will perform the job as described, and the employer will give me money as specified. That is the end of the responsibilities of both parties. Implicit in the agreement is that I will not do anything on my off-hours to harm the company, and the company will not do anything to erode my life during my off hours. That divide is pretty well established in employer/employee relationships. When you're on the clock, you and the company have specified rights and obligations, and when you're not, you don't. That's the "wall".
I don't think management and labor have ever shared a common interest, labor is subjected to the business maxim that dictates nothing short of maximum profit be expected from labor. With that in mind it's easy to see the outcome of the decades long friction between the two parties.
The historical role of management as overseer has also skewed the relationship, labor has always been in a subordinate role regardless of the ineptitude of mangement. The Toyota production system was designed to allow the worker a greater lattitude at the shop floor level of decision making, it did work for a while but even the Japanese aren't above pitting worker against worker in a dog eat dog enviroment that may not have produced the best possible product after all.
Boeing for example used to hire their shop level supervisors from the ranks of the unionized workers, this was a good system until the business practices of upper management were seen as a thing that the shop supervisors must understand in order to communicate on a common level. The infatuation with a college degree has been largely the result of a dismal US educational system that is unable to prepare a lot of the young for any task other than the mundane kinds.
That rare individual graduating from high school today that can and will show promise for future promotion is in too short a supply to fill the managerial needs of most industries. College today means that you can spell adequately and hopefully construct a complete sentence, beyond that the college prepared manager must be specifcally trained to do those tasks that will be required in addition to those college aquired skills.
Most large busness constructs allow for a technical lead kind of setup thereby allowing the boss to concentrate on those production performance metrics that their furure depends on. The Japanese have long advocated for the condensing of mangerial levels in all manufacturing systems, they can and do follow this principle for the fact that they have achieved a superior advantage in the form of their public school student expectations.
In his book' The End of Work, Jeremy Rifkin has pointed out the eventual scenario that will prevail, machines will become the new proletariat, bosses of course have never been seen as a true value added entity, so machine utilization will sound the death knell for them as well.
Much has been written about the possibility of "joint programs" between unions and their corporate bossses, my own opinion is that these kinds of get along go along attempts will eventually fall victim to the bottom line thinking of western corporate giants who have had some bad historical precedents dogging their newfound love of the proles. The wall is essentially between capital and labor not labor and management. In the eyes of capital they're both labor...........
It's interesting that you mention the rare high school graduate that has the smarts and the savvy to be "moving up." I have both a brother and a son who are in that exact position.
My brother took over management of a flailing and soon to close agricultural cooperative. He had been driving a fuel delivery truck for them for about a year. He has no college degree. But within 6 months of becoming manager of that business, he had cut their overhead by 90% and paid down 50% of their outstanding loans. For the past 30 years - under his management - this company has always made a profit, has expanded continually, and now operates as its own bank. He told me recently that they just had their most profitable business year in the history of the company - and this was during an economic down time.
There are several reasons he has done so well. First of all, that he is extremely smart in a pragmatic sense. He can look at a business opportunity and tell you, within 1 minute, whether it'll work or not. Second he is a relentlessly hard worker. It is very common that, during peak seasons, he drives truck all night after all "the help" has gone home. He does what, quite frankly, a lot of people are simply too lazy to do.
Degree or not, his success speaks for itself.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
