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Old 12-01-2008, 10:55 PM
 
Location: Northglenn, Colorado
3,689 posts, read 9,251,619 times
Reputation: 944

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by stycotlMy point is that guns, like smoking, is bad for your health.
Just because your health care is not like ours, where we as a nation are collectively responsible for each other's health ( at least when it comes to paying the bills) we aren't allowed to smoke in public places.
Your problem is that unstable American citizens can easily buy a gun since I assume that gun sellers aren't allowed to ask their customer for their medical history.
Heck, I believe that gun sellers don't even wanna know the medical history of their customers, because it would make them partly responsible for the actions of their customers.
I guess that like the American Army they have a don't ask, don't tell mentality when it comes to selling guns because it would directly affect their income.
Like drug pushers a gun seller doesn't want to be held (partly) responsible for the product he is selling, so they choose to be blind for the cons of owning a gun and argue that 3rd parties (like gun sellers) can't be held responsible for the action of an individual.
And maybe this is true, but gun sellers (including the government) sure are responsible for the gun problems in a nation.

Like I've posted before: Crime is not an individual problem, it is the problem of a society.
you find a way to prove that a gun is bad for my health. they are defiantly bad for someones health that wish me harm, but not bad for me or any person I know

your argument has fallen apart at the seams, you are resorting to changing the topic and posting these incoherent statements.
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Old 12-02-2008, 12:37 AM
 
Location: vagabond
2,631 posts, read 4,831,584 times
Reputation: 1300
*cracks knuckles*

ok, first, a preface: i find this entertaining, and would find it even more entertaining were there not actually people trying to take away my rights. mostly though, i enjoy the debate. as scary as it might be for some of the rest of the posters in this thread, i actually think similarly to tricky in a lot of issues. but gun control is not one of them. i am pretty sure that were tricky and i to sit down and have a conversation at a sports bar while we were watching the university of utah spank the pants off of byu (go team!) that we would have a friendly, entertaining, engaging conversation.

as it is on the net though, i don't know that even a fraction of the full dynamics of human interrelations are possible, so our conversations end up kind of stunted and eternally miscommunicated-misunderstood.

whatever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by stycotlMy point is that guns, like smoking, is bad for your health.
how has owning and being around guns and ammunition been bad for my health? i would say the opposite. in fact, owning and operating firearms as a civilian gave me a familiarity and confidence with the tools that led to consistent expert shooting scores in the military, and the ability to quickly acquire and engage a target when needed. in that sense, it has been a lifesaver.

i don't have personal stories of using a weapon in self defense in the civilian world (and i hope i never have to worry about it)–but as much as the anti-gun collective laughs at it and rolls their eyes, muttering about 'crazy loons', 'sociopaths', and 'john rambos', there are multitudes of verifiable accounts of people that have done just that. some of the posters on this very forum have made claims along those lines. but instead of listening to them, even admitting that they might be telling the truth, they automatically, almost without exception, begin with the insults and the accusations.

whether you choose to acknowledge the reality or not, guns were beneficial to the health of those people in those situations.

Quote:
Just because your health care is not like ours, where we as a nation are collectively responsible for each other's health ( at least when it comes to paying the bills) we aren't allowed to smoke in public places.
'because your health care is not like ours... we aren't allowed to smoke in public places.' (edited so that you can see the sentance without the tangential and descriptive information)

Smoke Free USA (http://www.smokefreeworld.com/usa.shtml - broken link)

so then, you are going to have to choose a new argument, since smoking in public is frowned upon in nearly every large city in the usa. it is still not universal, granted, and certainly the laws are barking up the wrong tree, especially in that they are confusing public and private property–but the synopsis is that both countries seem to be passing more and more laws along the same lines there.

Quote:
Your problem is that unstable American citizens can easily buy a gun since I assume that gun sellers aren't allowed to ask their customer for their medical history.
Heck, I believe that gun sellers don't even wanna know the medical history of their customers, because it would make them partly responsible for the actions of their customers.
gun dealers are not responsible for the actions of their clients anymore than car dealers are responsible for drunk driving. also, you fail to account for the fact that the majority of gun crimes are not committed with legally purchased weapons.

if a gun dealer was targetting children, the mentally unstable, or other groups that they should have nothing to do with, or if they were using illegal means to supply, then they would be responsible–just as the car dealer that sells automobiles to 12-year old kids with daddy's credit card.

there is a difference between actual irresponsibility and what you are claiming.

Quote:
I guess that like the American Army they have a don't ask, don't tell mentality when it comes to selling guns because it would directly affect their income.
ok... or maybe because the majority of their buyers are perfectly sane, rational people, and there is no objective way that such a witchhunt could be operated, adjudicated, or enforced.

Quote:
Like drug pushers...
and again with the emotional responses, sweeping generalizations, and insulting character attacks of people that you don't know anything about.

Quote:
a gun seller doesn't want to be held (partly) responsible for the product he is selling, so they choose to be blind for the cons of owning a gun and argue that 3rd parties (like gun sellers) can't be held responsible for the action of an individual.
And maybe this is true, but gun sellers (including the government) sure are responsible for the gun problems in a nation.
do you know what motivates the gun dealers? have you done the research? can you even point to one that has?

so where are you coming up with this stuff then?

i will tell you my guess; let me know how close i am.

i think that you are reacting emotionally to a problem that you have not even begun to scratch the surface of. someone shouted GUN CRIME in a loud voice, and you were quick to decide who was at fault, without actually approaching it from a researched, unbiased, or even openminded direction. now, i realize that you are never going to admit to that opinion, but it is out there nonetheless. if it is true that this is not the case, then please, by all means, feel free to refute it with some kind of documentation, study, or contemplation to back it up.

the fact is that gun dealers cannot be held responsible for gun crimes anymore than home depot can be held responsible for assaults committed with a hammer, or than car dealers can be responsible for vehicular manslaughter.

if the dealers are disobeying the laws, then sure. but that is a different story entirely, and does not account for all merchants.

that was the legal responsibility. as far as the moral responsibility, again, if the majority of my clients are capable, rational people, and i have no objective, authorized, or even successful way of judging who is competent to own a firearm and who is not, then how am i responsible? if some loon comes in twitching and asking for a gun so that he can go blow his girlfriend's head off followed by his own, then i'm going to refuse him service and try to see that he gets baker-act-ed. but again, that is not the reality that gun dealers face.

you are accusing the wrong people.

and this next part is what proves it...

Quote:
Like I've posted before: Crime is not an individual problem, it is the problem of a society.
100% agreed. but in the same way that justice and mercy can coexist without blowing up the universe with paradox, so can individual and societal responsibility. in fact, were it not posible for the two ideals to coexist, our communities based on social contract would not operate, and our existence would be rather... primitive still (to the great joy of the sierra club).

you cannot separate responsibility from the individual, while trying to reinforce societal responsibility. the two concepts are mutually exclusive. in order for society to be responsible, it needs to be constructed of responsible individuals. when that ceases to happen, society ceases to be even capable of responsibility.

as long as the anti-gun crowd continues to push the guilt and the punishment of the criminal and the negligent upon the shoulders of honest, rule-abiding, responsible citizens, violence will only get worse. as long as we continue to treat every syptom of the disease, without actually cutting out the disease itself, the infection will only increase.

guns are not at the heart of your emotional distress, nor anyone else's. to say that they are is to lie to yourself and everyone you communicate with. my guns are no more guilty of bloodshed than i am, and even the guns of the convicted murderer are not guilty of the choices he made. neither is the gun dealer. neither is the car dealer that sold him the car in which he drove to the residence of his victims. neither is the ropemaker that sold him the tools with which he bound them before execution.

neither is society guilty of his crimes. it is still society's problem, as you said, and there are almost definately some (read: not all, and probably not even most) individuals within this murderer's life that were neglectful, abusive, or ignorant in their dealings with him–and they should be marked as the idiots that they are. but the blame for the crime itself does not even fall on them. it falls on the criminal alone.

also, feel free to keep ignoring the question that i asked you earlier that you still have not answered:

Quote:
so again, do you actually believe that americans are forced to own guns? if not, then why post it?
aaron out.
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Old 12-02-2008, 06:30 AM
 
44,564 posts, read 43,103,689 times
Reputation: 14375
Guns and cigarettes are two different things. Smoking does nothing but hurt you if you use it. If you use a gun, it depends. Guns were made for many purposes from self-defense to hunting for food.
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Old 12-02-2008, 09:11 AM
 
Location: 80904 West siiiiiide!
2,864 posts, read 7,096,377 times
Reputation: 1543
They DO look at your medical history before you purchase a gun. That's what the background check does. They look for history of mental illness, restraining orders, felonies, assaults, illegal drug use or possesion, etc.
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Old 12-02-2008, 09:21 AM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,361,805 times
Reputation: 4893
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanek9freak View Post
They DO look at your medical history before you purchase a gun. That's what the background check does.
No, they do not look at your medical history.

What they look for are PUBLIC RECORD court orders of mental issues

Your medical history is not a matter of public record.
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Old 12-02-2008, 09:56 AM
 
Location: 80904 West siiiiiide!
2,864 posts, read 7,096,377 times
Reputation: 1543
Only mental issues should prevent you from owning a firearm. Why would anything else, such as diseases be an issue? Your medical history is and allways will be private.

it's nobody's business what medical issues I may have.
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Old 12-02-2008, 10:02 AM
 
Location: NY
2,007 posts, read 3,361,529 times
Reputation: 905
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
Besides paranoia, what else do you think could be the reason gun laws have become more restrictive?
Politicians that know gun control has never worked and never will but have to "do something" to pander to peoples fears.
It's no mystery that every state that has enacted right to carry concealed laws have seen a large decrease in violent crime. In every case, the cries of blood in the streets have been unfounded and proven wrong. CCW permitees are among the most law-abiding people in the country. Facts are hard things for the hopolophobes to handle.
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Old 12-02-2008, 10:02 AM
 
Location: West Michigan
12,084 posts, read 33,134,961 times
Reputation: 16733
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
And like America we have our nut jobs, but it isn't easy for a Dutch citizen to buy a gun, especially because we can't buy them in the local supermarket like you Americans can.



but what Australia and America have in common is that they both are in favour of their citizens owning guns and that they both have been former penal colonies.
You can't honestly believe these two remarks you made to be true do you?
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Old 12-02-2008, 10:49 AM
 
44,564 posts, read 43,103,689 times
Reputation: 14375
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepejeep View Post
Politicians that know gun control has never worked and never will but have to "do something" to pander to peoples fears.
It's no mystery that every state that has enacted right to carry concealed laws have seen a large decrease in violent crime. In every case, the cries of blood in the streets have been unfounded and proven wrong. CCW permitees are among the most law-abiding people in the country. Facts are hard things for the hopolophobes to handle.
I do agree with what you say about the politicians and gun issues.
How old do you have to be to get permission to carry a concealed weapon?
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Old 12-02-2008, 11:22 AM
 
Location: vagabond
2,631 posts, read 4,831,584 times
Reputation: 1300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bydand View Post
You can't honestly believe these two remarks you made to be true do you?
oh come on. you can't expect people to use logic, rational thought, and honesty in these kinds of discussions can you? tricky says a lot of things about guns that i don't think he really believes are true.

i'm still waiting for an explanation of one of them in particular, but now that he's been called on the earlier comments as well, he might as well get them over with in one descriptive post...
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