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Old 12-02-2008, 09:06 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,383,060 times
Reputation: 4893

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TD: You wrote - I value my own experiences over studied facts done by others


With that in mind, I value MY experience where owning, and using a firearm, saved the life of my wife, child and myself.

OBTW - you have previously denigrated my actual life experience - yet you say you value your life experiences more than studied facts -

Perhaps you should also value mine and others too -
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Old 12-02-2008, 09:29 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,525,799 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by Noahma
Quote:
It was common fact back in history that the world was Flat, it was common fact once upon a time that witches ate young kids. And What has been thought of as common fact that restricting gun ownership would lower crime has been shown to be FALSE, by scientific studies.
Guns, prison and even your death penalty are not a deterrent to stop crime.
The only way to stop crime or at least contain it is by improving the overall conditions of a nation so there will be no reason to commit a crime.
In this hypothetical nation only the mentally unstable people will commit crimes.
As a matter of fact our Dutch minister of justice Ernst Hirsch Ballin (CDA) proposes that criminals with a mental illness should be treated in a mental hospital instead of going to prison.
He believes that doing this will lower the chance of recidivism.
I wonder how many US prisoners would go to a mental hospital if this would happen in the US?


Originally Posted by Greatday
Quote:
Perhaps you should also value mine and others too -
No, simply because I suspect your experience regarding with having shot a criminal while he was threatening your wife is untrue.
My personal experience with you (via dm) is that you aren't as calm and collected as you pretend to be.
Especially during a conflict.
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Old 12-02-2008, 09:46 PM
 
Location: Northglenn, Colorado
3,689 posts, read 9,257,954 times
Reputation: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by Noahma Guns, prison and even your death penalty are not a deterrent to stop crime.
The only way to stop crime or at least contain it is by improving the overall conditions of a nation so there will be no reason to commit a crime.
In this hypothetical nation only the mentally unstable people will commit crimes.
As a matter of fact our Dutch minister of justice Ernst Hirsch Ballin (CDA) proposes that criminals with a mental illness should be treated in a mental hospital instead of going to prison.
He believes that doing this will lower the chance of recidivism.
I wonder how many US prisoners would go to a mental hospital if this would happen in the US?


Originally Posted by Greatday No, simply because I suspect your experience regarding with having shot a criminal while he was threatening your wife is untrue.
My personal experience with you (via dm) is that you aren't as calm and collected as you pretend to be.
Especially during a conflict.
your little lala land will never come to fruition, there will ALWAYS be people that want to hurt others for various reasons, not because they are mentally unstable, but because of thousands of reasons only known to the criminal. Go find your closest fundamentalist Muslim and ask for peace, i bet you return home with no head. Those criminals in America that are found to have mental illness during the commission of a crime DO end up in a mental hospital, and are treated, they serve the sentence imposed on them, and are released.

and I ask you again WHY NOT AWNSER THE QUESTION POSED DIRECTLY AT YOU BY STYCOTL?
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Old 12-02-2008, 10:06 PM
 
Location: vagabond
2,631 posts, read 4,834,606 times
Reputation: 1300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Fact #1 is that idiots ( read: gung ho criminals and other gun owners who actually believe that having watched porn equals having actual sexual experience) using guns are dangerous to everyone's health.
whoa, let's slow down here, tricky. instead of namecalling and insults–which cripple your argument at the knees, how about we use rational points and well-thought analysis?

Quote:
Fact #2 is that whenever several people decide to enter a fire fight the chance to hit innocent people only increases so 1 can safely say that the more people draw a gun the less safe the public safety becomes.
i'm unaware of too many modern day wild west shootouts involving a plethora of armed foes. weird stuff happens, but in the same vein, 12-car pileups are certainly worse than 1 2-car fender bender. but show me some statistics that say that the majority, or even a decent number–heck, even *a* number–belong in that category. if it is as rare as i am betting it is, it is not worth the additional danger and suffering that could be alleviated by allowing responsible citizens to own guns.

Quote:
Fact #3 is that Americans behave paranoid compared to say the Dutch people.
get back to me when you have time to study up on what the word "fact" means. then maybe we can have an intelligent conversation where the words we use mean the same things. till then, my fact (actual, tested, proven substance), and your fact (tricky's common-sense-don't-need-no-research-to-back-it-up)will continue to remain very different animals.

Quote:
Maybe the Dutch would eventually behave like the Americans when they live in the US, but we don't live there.
what, pray tell, does acting like an american mean?

Quote:
Fact #4 it is very easy for depressed/suicidal people to buy a gun in the US.

I only find it logical that gun owners don't wanna acknowledge that using a gun is bad for the public health because they only think of their own individual health.
Heck, if a gun owners starts shooting at a criminal and in the process hits 5 innocent people by accident, whether these wounds are lethal or not is irrelevant, he'll excuse his incompetence by saying that it could have been worse: the criminal could've killed 12 people.
again, though i know you detest it, and would rather trust your media-inspired, long-range opinions on a country that you can only see by way of youtube and hollywood, do a little research, which could be as simple as, hmm... i dunno... maybe LISTENING to what we are telling you as american gun owners. you keep describing american gun owners as rabid, irrational fools, even though you are having a conversation with a gaggle of them right here. care to tell me which of my posts has led you to believe that i am an irresponsible gun owner?

if that approach to research doesn't float your boat, then you might actually have to crack a book or something.

Quote:
Every time a Dutch police officer has drawn a gun the whole situation will be examined and if the officer has jumped the gun (pun intended) he'll be severely reprimanded.
But I guess that in America this could not be the case, otherwise the whole police force would be unable to fight crime because they would be swamped in cases that have to be examined.
wrong again. where do you come up with this stuff? you wanna see which government is more anal about stuff like that? try: in iraq, we were investigated for firing a pen flare. a pen flare. yes, it is a flare that is the size of a pen; sparkles for 100 yards before fizzling into an ember the size of holland... scratch that, i mean, the size of an ant (see, we can at least use humor while we're at it, so long as we don't screw up *facts* while we do it).

i know that there is an american cop online somewhere here that can clarify: does every use of deadly force by an authority have to be investigated in america? how much does even brandishing a weapon get investigated? i know in the usmc, even brandishing a weapon (obviously holding it at the ready; not just holding it. duh) was enough to earn you some long, uncomfortable questions from higher.

Quote:
And this is the essence of the whole gun law problem, when it comes to my personal safety everyone else's medical history becomes my issue.
If the guy in front of me is mentally unstable I want to know if he is carrying a gun and if the guy in front of me is carrying a gun I need to know if he is mentally unstable (or has a record of having been mentally unstable).
For the very simple fact that I do not even try to reason with mentally unstable people who carry guns.
I just wanna get the hell outta there and let the professionals handle it.
and you are saying that americans are the paranoid ones? i don't even bat an eye when i see a gun in public. i didn't even when i was a kid–it was a nonissue. open carry is not really common, but it is certainly nothing to be scared of. are you afraid of the guy if he has a buck knife on his belt? what if he is carrying battery-operated power tools? what if he has steel-toed boots on? what if he is bigger than you? what if you know he has martial arts training?

now, how about you take noahma's advice and answer my earlier questions? i went to a great deal of trouble to respond to your comments, which if i had no respect for you, i would have merely found the emoticon equivalent of the finger, and pointed it in the direction of yon, young dutchman with his finger in the ****.

aaron out.
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Old 12-02-2008, 10:09 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,462,455 times
Reputation: 47456
berk shooting indicidents bring attention to crime and force government to take action. crime does not bring attention to crime. an unarmed public is a silent lamb.
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Old 12-02-2008, 10:41 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,383,060 times
Reputation: 4893
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
No, simply because I suspect your experience regarding with having shot a criminal while he was threatening your wife is untrue.
You "suspect" wrong -
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Old 12-02-2008, 10:56 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,383,060 times
Reputation: 4893
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by Noahma Guns, prison and even your death penalty are not a deterrent to stop crime.
The only way to stop crime or at least contain it is by improving the overall conditions of a nation so there will be no reason to commit a crime.
There will ALWAYS BE CRIMES - it is part of human nature

It could be rapes, murders, robberies - whatever

Crime will never be able to be eliminated - reduced perhaps - but never eliminated.
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Old 12-02-2008, 11:32 PM
 
Location: vagabond
2,631 posts, read 4,834,606 times
Reputation: 1300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday View Post
There will ALWAYS BE CRIMES - it is part of human nature

It could be rapes, murders, robberies - whatever

Crime will never be able to be eliminated - reduced perhaps - but never eliminated.
that is the other one of his claims that i was looking for! thanks, gd; i thought i'd lost it.

again, tricky, claiming that a perfect government will rid the world of the criminally sane is a fantasy. you are trying to tie all crime except for the lunatics to poverty and social inequality. if anything, we have had it proven to us time and again that there will always be corrupt individuals that want to dominate others, and those that want more wealth at the cost of every other person within reach.

i hope for the day that we can have a socially perfect government. but even then, i'm not naive enough to think that all will be smooth sailing from thereon out. i don't think you are either, so look to the facts. even common sense agrees with this one...
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Old 12-02-2008, 11:49 PM
 
Location: Northglenn, Colorado
3,689 posts, read 9,257,954 times
Reputation: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by stycotl View Post
that is the other one of his claims that i was looking for! thanks, gd; i thought i'd lost it.

again, tricky, claiming that a perfect government will rid the world of the criminally sane is a fantasy. you are trying to tie all crime except for the lunatics to poverty and social inequality. if anything, we have had it proven to us time and again that there will always be corrupt individuals that want to dominate others, and those that want more wealth at the cost of every other person within reach.

i hope for the day that we can have a socially perfect government. but even then, i'm not naive enough to think that all will be smooth sailing from thereon out. i don't think you are either, so look to the facts. even common sense agrees with this one...
As an idea of someone that seems to defy Trickys logic when it comes to poverty being one of the reasons for committing crime. There is an actress that is well.... a multi millionaire, she is now in trouble for stealing some jewelery, and was found guilty of shoplifting. What is her reason for committing the crimes? She could easily afford the stuff she stole.
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Old 12-02-2008, 11:51 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,383,060 times
Reputation: 4893
ST. LOUIS A St. Louis city leader frustrated with the police response to rising crime called Tuesday on residents to arm themselves to protect their lives and property.

Alderman Charles Quincy Troupe said police are ineffective, outnumbered or don't


FOXNews.com - St. Louis City Leader Says Police Ineffective, Tells Residents to Get Armed - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News
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