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Old 12-04-2008, 12:38 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,514,836 times
Reputation: 1573

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Originally Posted by Noahma
Quote:
your getting dilusional, almost as much as one other poster here. You think you can take down an armed ciminal with your bare hands before they can pull the trigger, you obviously get your knowlege of the U.S. from television sitcoms and nightly shows such as CSI and the Sopranos. and yes, ill admit GreatDay is our Don
I'm happy for ya.
What gun owners keep forgetting is that you can't shoot at things you can't see.
Or do ya really believe that I'll expose myself or freeze like a deer?
I'm also happy for ya that you believe that every American gun owner automatically turns inta Rambo or the Terminator.


Originally Posted by Greatday
Quote:
Would you, if necessary, kill the intruder to save yourself or your loved one.
Nope, simply because I'm the 1 who dictates my actions and no one else.
Like I posted before violence only begets more violence.
How do you think wars start?
They start over simple disagreements which quickly escalates into family feuds because 1 family member killed a rival family member and before ya know it we've got another world war.

Gambling with my own life is 1 thing, but I do not gamble with the life of others.
Nor am I willing to sacrifice the lives of others in the name of my personal ‘pride’ (read: ego) or ‘family honour’.
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Old 12-04-2008, 01:01 AM
 
Location: vagabond
2,631 posts, read 4,831,021 times
Reputation: 1300
tricky.

first of all, try to act a little bit respectful. i have answered every question you have thrown at me. every one of them. you have answered probably 5% of mine. the rest you either ignore, or give some kind of roundabout answer that has nothing to do with the question.

then, you have the nerve to play the stupid little "smack-the-forehead" emoticons like you are dealing with a two-year old. doesn't work that way, buddy. if you want to claim some sort of impatience or frustration with the conversation, you should at least make sure that you are honoring your part of the deal, not hiding behind unsubstantiated claims, straw man arguments, and rhetorical sleight of hand.

there; that was my verbal equivalent of an emoticon.

back to my question: you are again ignoring what i have asked you, and are doing everything you can to change the subject.

i asked if you believe the rest of the accounts, filed through police agencies, in your country as well as mine.

this was your answer:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Violence only begets more violence.
The only sure way to assure that your opponent will not retaliate is by killing him, his family and his friends.
But eventually the problem will become what to do when a (blood)relative becomes an enemy.
do you want us to take you seriously? i am not talking about the 2nd amendment advocates. i am talking about anyone. you come to the *great debates* forum, to do what? to dance around serious issues, never really giving anything worthwhile to the conversation, never even answering the questions posed to you. is that really what you intend on doing?

go ahead now with the "i don't care what other people think about me." tripe. it would pleasantly surprise me to read something else, but if that is the road you want to go down, be my guest; it's toll-free. realize as you do though, that it is presumed that you come to this forum to make an intelligent point for the gun-control team. continuing down the track you are on has already made me ponder once or twice if you are out to just make liberals look incompetent and incoherent.

back to your post. the only sure way to make sure that your opponent will not retaliate is to kill everyone that had anything to do with him? do you really believe that?

we're not fighting for dominance in a lion pride, tricky. we're talking about self defense from an *immediate* threat. not from the threat of whatever family members might take offense. not from the guy's paper boy that used to go fishing on weekends with him.

just as you shouldn't legally be able to take my firearms from me until i have proven myself incompetent or criminal, i can't prosecute any of this fictionally dead criminal's family members until they actually come after me.

not only that, but the reality (yes, back to earth now) is that you would almost never have to worry about such a thing happening. it certainly does happen; i'm not arguing that. but most likely you are not defending yourself against the local capo's son-in-law. you are probably defending yourself from a crack addict that doesn't even remember what state his family is in. if you want to make believe that you are the punisher, and all of your enemies are out to kill your family, again, toll-free street. just remember that the street is lined with hollywood film crews and script writers.

but whatever; the kicker here is that when questioned about mafia-style revenge crimes, you reply with this:

Quote:
It is a fact that most murders are committed by friends/relatives.

Quote:
Most people are aware, and this study confirms, that the great majority of assaults and homicides occur among friends, relatives, and acquaintances. Although this fact is perhaps reassuring to those persons who believe that they have only peaceable associates, it adds to the general sense of helplessness. It is easy to feel helpless when thinking about assaults and homicides.
Approximately two-thirds of all murders were committed by relatives, friends, or acquaintances of the victims; about a quarter were committed by family members; more than half of these family killings involved spouse killing spouse.

... they refer, not simply to statistics, but to countless human tragedies.
Source: Employee Theft: A Question of Integrity
do you not see the difference between al capone and a drunk husband that shoots his wife and then himself? do you not realize that if the wife were to fight back and actually kill the husband, most likely she would have nothing to worry about from the deadbeat's (yes, pun intended) family. i'm sure that there would be some bitter feelings, but reality says that she is going to be ok most of the time. i am sure that our sensationalist news would have been playing in that sand box a lot more if such a thing were commonplace, especially if it was in any way related to gun crime.

so then, the only reason that i can see you posting something like the above tangent is because you couldn't actually think of something to say, and decided to divert the conversation down an alley that you've been wanting to tread to begin with.

Quote:
If they only threaten my life I'm willing to risk it by trying to take him down (without necessarily killing him).
Quote:
And no I still won't need a gun to accomplish that.
But if they threaten the life of a loved 1 I'll do anything they say.
so again, none of us have claimed that a gun is the answer to every problem–despite how ardently you gun-control fanboys want to believe otherwise.

fact: most legal gun owners never even need to brandish the weapon.

fact: most legal gun owners never have a problem which needs to be addressed with the intent of deadly force.

fact: owing to the above, most legal gun owners therefore never do address a problem with deadly force.

care to dispute those claims? anyone?

again, for the thousandth time, we understand that a gun is not a magical stress-relieving button. so, why continue to claim that we don't? especially when reality says otherwise?

any weapon that i have in my house that has a defensive purpose is one among many defensive solutions. get that? ONE OF THEM; not the only one.

in fact, the only situations outside of the military that i have ever been involved in, i have been able to handle with my brain and my voice. that includes one instance of minor explosives, one instance of being targetted for a mugging by 8 individuals in south america, and a few less dangerous ones in the states.

my brain saved me (ok, i actually give the credit to God, but i claim that He inspired me. you can call it what you want). i didn't even need to pull my knife in any one of those situations, much less a gun.

kinda throws your "americans don't know how to react rationally/americans are violent, paranoid scizophrenics/americans pray for the opportunity to shoot someone in "self defense" argument out of the game doesn't it?

do you not believe me? have any reason to doubt my veracity? do my actions speak louder than my words here?

now, if you will kindly either *directly* answer the questions posed to you, or concede the points being made, i would be happy. if you choose not to do either of these, be sure to give a detailed explanation of why you refuse, so that in the spirit of a *great debate* we can at least understand that we're not dealing with a child whose thumbs are stuck in his ears while he shrills at the top of his lungs something like, neener neener neener.

thanks. aaron out.
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Old 12-04-2008, 05:30 AM
 
Location: In a house
5,230 posts, read 7,318,833 times
Reputation: 2558
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by Noahma I'm happy for ya.
What gun owners keep forgetting is that you can't shoot at things you can't see.
Or do ya really believe that I'll expose myself or freeze like a deer?
I'm also happy for ya that you believe that every American gun owner automatically turns inta Rambo or the Terminator.
So you hide & let him do what he wants?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday Nope, simply because I'm the 1 who dictates my actions and no one else.
Like I posted before violence only begets more violence.
How do you think wars start?
They start over simple disagreements which quickly escalates into family feuds because 1 family member killed a rival family member and before ya know it we've got another world war.
We are talking about home defense. Nobody is going to start a war over a criminal getting shot.

Quote:
Gambling with my own life is 1 thing, but I do not gamble with the life of others.
Nor am I willing to sacrifice the lives of others in the name of my personal ‘pride’ (read: ego) or ‘family honour’.
Ahh, but by cooperating with the criminal you ARE GAMBLING that it will save you. Thats often not the case. Its not about honour. Its about being alive & healthy after its all over. You choose to let the criminal decide if he should kill you & your kids, maybe rape the wife for awhile, whatever he chooses.

There are few certainties in life, its a foolish man who leaves everything to chance.
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Old 12-04-2008, 07:27 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,514,836 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by Tin Knocker
Quote:
We are talking about home defense. Nobody is going to start a war over a criminal getting shot.
Right, and you believe that 'criminals' have no family members?
I guess you've never shot a gang-banger, right?
Don't they consider their gang as their family?


Originally Posted by stycotl
Quote:
then, you have the nerve to play the stupid little "smack-the-forehead" emoticons like you are dealing with a two-year old.
Whenever people behave like a 2-year old they should not be surprised to be treated like that (at least by me).

Quote:
we're not fighting for dominance in a lion pride, tricky. we're talking about self defense from an *immediate* threat.
What do ya think the head of a pride of lions fights for?
He defends his territory against any *immediate* threat.
The difference between an animal and a human is that animals have no ego, therefore have nothing that resembles human pride, nor would an animal try to exterminate a whole race unlike some human individuals (Hitler) have done, or at least tried to do, throughout history.

Quote:
not from the threat of whatever family members might take offense.
Right, and whenever you lose a relative to a crime you would not take that as an offence?
Or would you consider the homicide as a simple accident or an act of God?
Besidez, how many gun owners wouldn't hesitate to take the law in their own hands by drawing their gun ( read: immediately shoot whatever it is they perceive as a threat)?
Isn't this why you've bought the damn thing?
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Old 12-04-2008, 07:35 AM
 
Location: Northglenn, Colorado
3,689 posts, read 9,250,335 times
Reputation: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by Noahma I'm happy for ya.
What gun owners keep forgetting is that you can't shoot at things you can't see.
Or do ya really believe that I'll expose myself or freeze like a deer?
I'm also happy for ya that you believe that every American gun owner automatically turns inta Rambo or the Terminator.


Originally Posted by Greatday Nope, simply because I'm the 1 who dictates my actions and no one else.
Like I posted before violence only begets more violence.
How do you think wars start?
They start over simple disagreements which quickly escalates into family feuds because 1 family member killed a rival family member and before ya know it we've got another world war.

Gambling with my own life is 1 thing, but I do not gamble with the life of others.
Nor am I willing to sacrifice the lives of others in the name of my personal ‘pride’ (read: ego) or ‘family honour’.
one of the first things you learn as a gun owner are 4. rules.

1. dont point the gun at anything you dont intend to kill.
2. always treat a gun as if it is loaded
3. know what is behind your target
4. keep your finger off the trigger untill ready to fire.

there is also a type of round that will lessen harm to those behind people called a hollow point. The penetration value is much less than that of a full metal jacket. as soon as it hits flesh it mushrooms out, thus seriously hurting the person shot, but not allowing it to pass through the criminal.


so.... when you going to quit cutting this last question out of your replys and answer the questions posed by Stycotl?
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Old 12-04-2008, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,061,524 times
Reputation: 3717
Thumbs down Ho ho hum....

Still at it, eh?

For my part, I'll refer again to the interesting info in the following post.

(Remember guys, it's sometimes necessary to repeat information to a child to get his or her attention. And being stubborn they still won't admit it.). Neeener-neener, right?

The Manila Times Internet Edition | OPINION > Natural response to danger (http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2008/apr/07/yehey/opinion/20080407opi2.html - broken link)

You guys have said it all so well and in so many ways, yet there's still no concession, none, from the "quote and pastes" from the Right Honorable Tricky that I can't "Ignore". Despite all the facts, the honest intellectual questions, the well-researched comebacks, this person stubbornly then deflects the argument in order to bait you into a rant.

Of course gun control as proposed by such types is known to be useless, pointless and simply indicative of a greater agenda: elimination of privately owned guns through Draconian legislation. Unambiguous proof of the effectiveness of ANY gun control is missing. Quite to the contrary, alternate effects (as in the posted link) are evident: crime goes up. To dismiss these facts outright and without any thoughtful investigation is to demonstrate an incredible lack of intellectual honesty, vast near-psychotic adherance to irrational ideals, and the likely need for education.

You postulate, he insinuates. You swear, he laughs. You respond thoughtfully, he doesn't. Fair?

This is a democracy. Holland isn't. Incomparable. You're listening to the rantings of an ill-educated, inexperienced and illogical baiter. I'd say exercise your democratic options here.
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Old 12-04-2008, 01:00 PM
 
Location: NY
2,007 posts, read 3,361,092 times
Reputation: 905
I'm amazed that Tricky hasn't been kicked for trolling yet. I have him blocked. He can't defend any of his positions because the facts are not there. Best to ignore him.
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Old 12-04-2008, 02:08 PM
 
Location: 80904 West siiiiiide!
2,864 posts, read 7,095,361 times
Reputation: 1543
How Ironic would it be if someone shot him?
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Old 12-04-2008, 04:11 PM
 
Location: In a house
5,230 posts, read 7,318,833 times
Reputation: 2558
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by Tin KnockerRight, and you believe that 'criminals' have no family members?
I guess you've never shot a gang-banger, right?
Don't they consider their gang as their family?
Never shot anyone, but if I have to there family will not be on my mind.

You dont make much sense. Is it your opinion that its wrong to defend yourself or family because in doing so you might injure the criminal & upset his family?
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Old 12-04-2008, 07:01 PM
 
Location: NY
2,007 posts, read 3,361,092 times
Reputation: 905
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanek9freak View Post
How Ironic would it be if someone shot him?
Now, now...be nice. The only ones who need to be shot are criminals. As much as I disagree with him, I don't think he's one of them.
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