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Old 01-08-2009, 05:32 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,529,077 times
Reputation: 1573

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Originally Posted by stycotl
Quote:
you didn't just ask if he implied that it did, you implied yourself that that is what he said. otherwise you wouldn't have insulted him about living in lala land.
I guess only the Americans in this thread are as immature as rifleman who keeps insisting that I live in La-La Land or Greatday who 'keeps dogging me' because he doesn't like my posts yet insists that America is a land where you can say anything you want?
Like your own President Dubya said 'You shouldn't try to kiss the kook if ya cant stand the kitchen.'
Or was it 'Ya shouldn't heat the oven if ya don't know the kitchen?'


Originally Posted by thotful1
Quote:
Mr. "D", do you have a non-combative adult response to these rreports on yuor utopia, or will you insult me like you've insulted and chased off Mr. rifleman, who'se posts I have quite enjoyed in the past?
I guess this is what's wrong with America, you can't stand public criticism.
If ya don't like my posts you have the freedom to not read it.
I'm just using my right to express myself.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't New York build on the foundation of New Amsterdam?

Concerning the problems with Dutch Muslims Wilders has done them a great service with his 'movie' Fitna because it didn't pan out as he'd had hoped.
No Dutch Muslim rioted in the street or had set a government building on fire.
He even attacked our PM for making it clear to the Muslim nations that Wilder's opinion was just his personal opinion and not the official opinion of the Dutch government.
Before his movie Wilders challenged his Muslim 'opponents' into a public debate because he knew they weren't used to public criticism, but he soon stopped after the release of his movie, because the Dutch Muslims have proven that they can take public criticism as well as any other Dutch citizen.
Heck we even have the 1st mosque where the Koran is preached in Dutch instead of Arabic because many Dutch Muslims don't speak Arabic that well.

As for getting killed for your opinions America has many examples too; the most famous ones are MLK, Malcolm X, JFK and several other presidents.
We, the Dutch, were just naive enough to believe that we had outgrown that process because we discuss every topic to dead.
Unfortunately not every individual is mature enough to settle their differences with just words.
As for Theo Van Gogh, if you think I'm bad he is much more ruthless with expressing his opinions. He sees no difference between Christians, Jews or Muslims and treated (read: insulted) them all the same.
Not that this would've been an excuse to kill him.
Like Theo I'm all for expressing your opinion, but unlike him I don't believe that everyone deals with it in the same way I do and he did.
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Old 01-08-2009, 06:45 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,529,077 times
Reputation: 1573
And regarding Pim Fortuyn I doubt he would have prospered as much if he became a politician in the US since he has always been openly gay.
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Old 01-08-2009, 09:15 AM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,391,056 times
Reputation: 4893
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Are you implying that only illegal immigrants commit crimes in America?
Nope.

Nor did I imply such
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Old 01-08-2009, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,391,056 times
Reputation: 4893
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
And English even isn't my 1st language.
Obviously
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Old 01-08-2009, 11:12 AM
 
113 posts, read 154,577 times
Reputation: 64
Thumbs down back at you, you bully!

Well well. rifleman is so on point about you. He's immature?

"rifleman who keeps insisting that I live in La-La Land..."

(where, exactly, did he say that? He and now I by my research, just point out that your homeland is far from great as you continue to present it... your posts are on record!)

"or Greatday who 'keeps dogging me' because he doesn't like my posts yet insists that America is a land where you can say anything you want?"

Yes you can say whatever you want in this country. You can even insult folks who just come here to discuss. From what I've read last night (and then posted), it's not that these guys or anyone else completely defends everything about this country, Actually it's one of the wonders of America, our ability to inspect ourselves and therefore improve. It's that you, sir, always refer to your country as being so much better than the America you despise. And that you dutchmen have no problems or are so much better at dealing with them. It's all on record.

You also pull irrelevant points out of what others say in order to not answer or deal with what they ask of you. You do it like clockwork. As in:

"and regarding Pim Fortuyn I doubt he would have prospered as much if he became a politician in the US since he has always been openly gay."

Implying what exactly? That openly gay men don't do well here? Barney Frank? The mayor of San Francisco? But you didn't adress the point that this man was murdered in holland despite your argument that this sort of thing only happens in violent America.

Don't you understand the points people are trying to make to you, or do you just realize that, in the end, you're mostly wrong-headed and have no good logical comebacks? That you hold an indefensible position but cant admit it?

You also like to bad-mouth these guys' wives. Or their manhood. When cornered you are so predictable and lacking in debating skills. I note that by far the majority tally of opinion is against you and your attitude, not your right to be here. You just behave badly, and you know it or are, as rifleman has concluded, still in grade 8 and are a known schoolyard bully.

(When I read that, I knew he must actually be a practicing or hobby psychologist. He hit your nail on it's huge egotistical head!)

A perfect example is in your comments back to me about how New York may have been modelled on the commerce that the original Dutch traders put in place.

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't New York build on the foundation of New Amsterdam?"

So what. Your point in this silly response? That we should all bow down and pay homage to you or Holland for your vast cultural superiority? My point in Googling strife in Holland was that it turns out that life in Holland is NOT the paradise you've regularly painted it to be. It's got problems and they are getting worse, often because dutchmen can't or won't recognize or discuss these problems. My point wasn't that we have or haven't gained something from dutch thinking, which I'm sure we have. We've also gained a lot from the British, the Germans, the Spaniards, the Greeks. One of the points that the writer noted in one of those articles was that it's apparently not allowed for dutchmen to criticize or even discuss their government. You seem to be thus afflicted, but perhaps don't even know it.

It was also predicted that you would come back with an ad hominem. I know rifleman and others have finally also resorted to that, but only after you have bullied and insulted them to that point. I see their responses to other more rational debaters on other threads or in their early posts with you and they always remain cool, calm, "thotful" and reserved. It's just when exposed to your endless virulence that they react more aggressively. or as with rifleman, appropriately, give up and leave you to it.

Since all of this is true, if I were you I'd either sincerely apologise and then be happily accepted as a serious debator, or I'd leave, tail between legs, insisting that I'm not at fault here. That I'm a wonderful pleasant discussionist. That Holland is perfect.

I for one looked into this "Ignore" thing that rifleman mentioned, and you're now there as well for me. It means, BTW, that your responses don't show up on my screen any more. No matter what nasty comments you now make to me or anyone, you'll be howling into the wind. All alone. So don't bother attacking me as you have others; I won't even know it!

I only hope others do the same. You certainly deserve it.

Last edited by thotful1; 01-08-2009 at 11:35 AM.. Reason: changes
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Old 01-08-2009, 11:12 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,529,077 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by Greatday
Quote:
Nor did I imply such
Than what exactly were you implying?
Imagine as if you were explaining it to your American immigrant neighbour whose 1st language isn't English.


Originally Posted by thotful1
Quote:
It means, BTW, that your responses don't show up on my screen any more.
You have the freedom to do so.
I simply don't care either way.
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Old 01-08-2009, 11:23 AM
 
Location: vagabond
2,631 posts, read 4,835,837 times
Reputation: 1300
Quote:
I guess only the Americans in this thread are as immature as rifleman who keeps insisting that I live in La-La Land or Greatday who 'keeps dogging me' because he doesn't like my posts yet insists that America is a land where you can say anything you want?
Like your own President Dubya said 'You shouldn't try to kiss the kook if ya cant stand the kitchen.'
Or was it 'Ya shouldn't heat the oven if ya don't know the kitchen?'
what you keep ignoring, tricky, is that the frustration does not come from the critique. it comes from your lack of professional or respectful discussion. it comes from your refusal to answer questions and comments given you. it comes from your refusal to stay on topic, and it comes from your determination to use logically fallacious tangents, emotional responses, ad hominem attacks, straw man blusters, and blatant, ridiculous lies.

if you'll notice, most other gun control advocates don't get the same amount of eye-rolling that you, and to a lesser degree, rl receive. it isn't because you two want to take away rights, though that is certainly apalling; it is because both of you, tricky in particular, seem hellbent on proving that you can't hold a logical discussion.

you even ignore and deflect when we call you on your instances of ignoring and deflecting. it becomes a pointless exercise, and i think all of us would rather converse with the gun control advocates that would at least use logic and critical thought.

but even as i write this, i know it is pointless, because tricky thinks he is the epitome of logical and critical thinking. he probably doesn't even recognize his tangents, lies, deflections, personal attacks, etc as such. he probably grins and pushes himself away from his keyboard with the triumphant glow of someone that thinks he's just won the day, while every other poster and lurker on the forums is left scratching their heads and wondering what they heck he's talking about, and how it applies at all to the present conversation.

so, good luck to the rest of you. maybe we can make a successful invite to any of those gun control advocates that wish to discuss reasonably the topic at hand.

incidentally, any of you gun control advocating lurkers out there reading this, care to take a stand as far as tricky's tactics? you think he's spot-on, or do you think that he's been visiting the cannabis shops of amsterdam too often?

aaron out.
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Old 01-08-2009, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,391,056 times
Reputation: 4893
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Than what exactly were you implying?
My remark(s) are / were self explanatory.
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Old 01-08-2009, 11:52 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,529,077 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by Greatday
Quote:
My remark(s) are / were self explanatory.
Obviously only to you and other people who hold the same ideas like you (read: people who blame their problems on immigration, while America a priori is a nation of settlers otherwise known as foreign immigrants).
Or do you also distinguish between European immigrants and non-European immigrants?
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Old 01-08-2009, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Washington DC
5,915 posts, read 7,090,991 times
Reputation: 948
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by Greatday Obviously only to you and other people who hold the same ideas like you (read: people who blame their problems on immigration, while America a priori is a nation of settlers otherwise known as foreign immigrants).
Or do you also distinguish between European immigrants and non-European immigrants?
For most of our history, the United States didn't restrict immigration at all. There was some rudimentary screening of immigrants at places like Ellis Island, but that was primarily health screenings. We had some racist immigration laws targeting Asians, but until the 1920s we never had quotas, and people didn't need permission to come here. Immigrants were virtually always discriminated against, always railed at because they didn't speak English, and frequently confined to ghettos, but this xenophobic reaction to "illegal" immigrants is really new and disturbing. We need more workers, especially for lower paying, lower skilled jobs. The assertion that illegal immigrants use more in services than the provide is really unsupportable. I've never seen a credible study that calculated the economic impacts of immigration.
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