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Old 11-09-2008, 07:47 PM
 
11,368 posts, read 17,259,240 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elvislives View Post
I still doubt it would work in America.
Do you have any thoughts on why or why not?
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Old 11-09-2008, 08:10 PM
 
Location: Aiken S.C
765 posts, read 1,263,275 times
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[quote=jfre81;6088880]Do you have any thoughts on why or why not?[/quote
The mentalitys between the Dutch and Americans are so different and most Americans don't care enough for their fellow man enough to something like this.
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Old 11-09-2008, 08:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elvislives View Post
The mentalitys between the Dutch and Americans are so different and most Americans don't care enough for their fellow man enough to something like this.
Are you trying to say that the Dutch are more civilized than Americans or something?
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Old 11-09-2008, 09:48 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,532 posts, read 10,350,816 times
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Originally Posted by jfre81
Quote:
Are you trying to say that the Dutch are more civilized than Americans or something?
Hell yeah!
Unlike Americans whose 1st instinct is to shoot 1st and ask questions later, the Dutch negotiate ( even for centuries) before they draw a conclusion.
So you could say that Americans are too fast in drawing conclusions and the Dutch too slow.
But in certain matters it is better to be too slow (because you look at the problem from all angles) than too fast (because you only value your own perspective).
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Old 11-09-2008, 09:59 PM
 
11,368 posts, read 17,259,240 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by jfre81 Hell yeah!
Unlike Americans whose 1st instinct is to shoot 1st and ask questions later, the Dutch negotiate ( even for centuries) before they draw a conclusion.
So you could say that Americans are too fast in drawing conclusions and the Dutch too slow.
But in certain matters it is better to be too slow (because you look at the problem from all angles) than too fast (because you only value your own perspective).
Hm, maybe you're making a case for everyone in America to sit down and pass around a spliff. Maybe they'll chill out and think before they shoot.
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Old 11-09-2008, 10:03 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,532 posts, read 10,350,816 times
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Originally Posted by jfre81
Quote:
Maybe they'll chill out and think before they shoot.
The problem with smoking joints is that they damage the (short term) memory, especially when your brain is still in the stage of growing to maturity.
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Old 11-09-2008, 10:09 PM
 
339 posts, read 471,928 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfre81 View Post
I'm aware of that, but it's not like there are any figures available for a country that has ended prohibition of all drugs. Like I said, the Netherlands is only halfway there.

I think that pot should be sold in places like liquor stores and head shops to adults who can prove their age as they would with tobacco or alcohol, and that other drugs should be dispensed in clinics where help is available for addicts.

Throwing drug addicts in prison is folly. Just like they can't keep drugs out of the country, they can't keep them out of prison either, and it does not address the problem. They get released, and they go right back to doing what they were doing, just hardened and with a criminal record that hinders their chances of getting a regular job, place to live and such - you know, like productive citizens.
I realize that no matter what is said on this particular thread is going to matter since everyone appears to have already made up their mind on the topic, but how will these folks getting the harder drugs at a clinic magically give them the ability to produce the money to buy said drugs? Will they have to do something (steal, etc.) to get the money anyhow, or would they just get it for free (contradictory to the making it legal and taxing the hell out of it proposal). And...why do people who have gone to prison thus kicking their drug habit (because they have no choice), start doing them again when they get out negating them from becoming productive citizens? Is it because they are forced too? Or...is it because that's just how they are anyhow? Do some people ever go to prison, get cleaned up and decide to never go back? Are there drug programs in prison? I personally know people who were so addicted to drugs that jail/prison is the only thing that "probably" (because I can't predict the future) saved their lives. Would they be in a different place right now if they hadn't gone to prison and could have just gone to a clinic and gotten more drugs instead?

If people going to prison are there for drugs, chances are they had plenty of, well...chances to avoid it. Unless you are carrying "the big bag", you aren't likely going to prison or become a convicted felon the first time you are busted. Many courts also offer drug court type programs which is a nice way to completely avoid a felony and kick the habit at the same time. These programs are actually quite successful, but a lot of people choose not to do it because it requires work. Would these same people one day obtain the work-ethic necessary to later do this themselves and become productive citizens?

Keep in mind I can see both sides of the argument on this. I'm just not sold on the roll over and give up argument. For everything I have read from proponents of legalizing drugs, there are "hitches" in their theories (to include the violence associated with dealing, etc. arguments). The simple questions above not really even touching on said "hitches", and I don't even know if pointing them out would matter as, again, everyone appears to have made up their minds on the issue.
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Old 11-09-2008, 10:26 PM
 
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What kind of sentence (if any) you'll get for what is mostly on a state-by-state basis. There are still people locked up for minor drug offenses committed decades ago in New York under the Rockefeller laws, for example. Same goes for what kind of treatment if any they get in prison. It depends on what kind of funding has been allotted for treatment as opposed for prevention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDTD
I realize that no matter what is said on this particular thread is going to matter since everyone appears to have already made up their mind on the topic, but how will these folks getting the harder drugs at a clinic magically give them the ability to produce the money to buy said drugs? Will they have to do something (steal, etc.) to get the money anyhow, or would they just get it for free (contradictory to the making it legal and taxing the hell out of it proposal). And...why do people who have gone to prison thus kicking their drug habit (because they have no choice), start doing them again when they get out negating them from becoming productive citizens? Is it because they are forced too? Or...is it because that's just how they are anyhow? Do some people ever go to prison, get cleaned up and decide to never go back? Are there drug programs in prison? I personally know people who were so addicted to drugs that jail/prison is the only thing that "probably" (because I can't predict the future) saved their lives. Would they be in a different place right now if they hadn't gone to prison and could have just gone to a clinic and gotten more drugs instead?
Here's something that might shock you - I say the clinics give them the drugs. That's right, for free. Why? That means they're not paying a drug dealer, and they're in a setting where they can get help. That means they're eliminated from the whole equation. If there's a break-in or a stickup done by a drug addict I'll take that over all-out turf wars in the streets involving thugs backed by drug cartels and international gangs like MS-13. I'm a realist. There is no eliminating crime any more than there is eliminating drugs. The goal here is making it as minimal as possible. What we're doing now is not coming anywhere close to that. When some big shot in the drug trade goes down there's another bloodbath among the remaining ones for the turf that just went up for grabs.

I never "have my mind made up." However, nobody has succeeded in convincing me that the current approach is the best way. All prohibition has done is sent crime skyrocketing - violent crime, not just possession or dealing. And there are always going to be "hitches" - this isn't a perfect world, so there's not a perfect solution. What you're looking for is the way with the fewest hitches. The drug policy status quo is full of them.
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Old 11-09-2008, 10:28 PM
 
Location: Northglenn, Colorado
3,689 posts, read 6,777,032 times
Reputation: 915
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDTD View Post
I realize that no matter what is said on this particular thread is going to matter since everyone appears to have already made up their mind on the topic, but how will these folks getting the harder drugs at a clinic magically give them the ability to produce the money to buy said drugs? Will they have to do something (steal, etc.) to get the money anyhow, or would they just get it for free (contradictory to the making it legal and taxing the hell out of it proposal). And...why do people who have gone to prison thus kicking their drug habit (because they have no choice), start doing them again when they get out negating them from becoming productive citizens? Is it because they are forced too? Or...is it because that's just how they are anyhow? Do some people ever go to prison, get cleaned up and decide to never go back? Are there drug programs in prison? I personally know people who were so addicted to drugs that jail/prison is the only thing that "probably" (because I can't predict the future) saved their lives. Would they be in a different place right now if they hadn't gone to prison and could have just gone to a clinic and gotten more drugs instead?

If people going to prison are there for drugs, chances are they had plenty of, well...chances to avoid it. Unless you are carrying "the big bag", you aren't likely going to prison or become a convicted felon the first time you are busted. Many courts also offer drug court type programs which is a nice way to completely avoid a felony and kick the habit at the same time. These programs are actually quite successful, but a lot of people choose not to do it because it requires work. Would these same people one day obtain the work-ethic necessary to later do this themselves and become productive citizens?

Keep in mind I can see both sides of the argument on this. I'm just not sold on the roll over and give up argument. For everything I have read from proponents of legalizing drugs, there are "hitches" in their theories (to include the violence associated with dealing, etc. arguments). The simple questions above not really even touching on said "hitches", and I don't even know if pointing them out would matter as, again, everyone appears to have made up their minds on the issue.
I can attest to the difficulty of kicking the habit. I have an uncle who is addicted to several drugs, he has become a problem for the entire family. He has been in the court ordered drug rehabilitation programs.... get this... four times. All four times he has completed the course, all four times he was released and allowed back into society, and all four times he has started using the drugs again, sometimes as soon as 2 days after leaving the treatment program. some things just should NOT be legal. I find it quite an interesting thing that the political party that advocates legalizing drugs, is the same party that has placed bans on simple things like cigarettes from being in public because of the adverse health effects, and the addictive nature of them.
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Old 11-09-2008, 10:30 PM
 
11,368 posts, read 17,259,240 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noahma View Post
I can attest to the difficulty of kicking the habit. I have an uncle who is addicted to several drugs, he has become a problem for the entire family. He has been in the court ordered drug rehabilitation programs.... get this... four times. All four times he has completed the course, all four times he was released and allowed back into society, and all four times he has started using the drugs again, sometimes as soon as 2 days after leaving the treatment program. some things just should NOT be legal. I find it quite an interesting thing that the political party that advocates legalizing drugs, is the same party that has placed bans on simple things like cigarettes from being in public because of the adverse health effects, and the addictive nature of them.
I understand where you're coming from - but how exactly has prohibition stopped your uncle from going back to the drugs?

And what mainstream political party in America advocates legalizing drugs?
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