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Old 12-31-2008, 03:24 PM
 
613 posts, read 1,153,878 times
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I agree with your opinion about them lefty but you can't get frustrated. It will take a lot more then the truth to erase 70 years of propaganda. What they can't realize and wouldn't if they could is the way drug use has been attacked was wrong from the start. All they have done is issolate users from productive society, which destroys any inspiration for ambition that users have left before they use drugs, and provide means by which people who refuse or are unable to be a productive member of society become wealthy. Because it is such a taboo even users that have been "tricked" into drug use are issolated and are treated as scum causing the mindset that is needed to do most drugs. The only people who escape addiction are those that are inspired to. This includes addictions of thought and emotion.
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Old 12-31-2008, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
7,091 posts, read 10,486,058 times
Reputation: 4104
Quote:
Originally Posted by allah truth View Post
What they can't realize and wouldn't if they could is the way drug use has been attacked was wrong from the start. All they have done is issolate users from productive society, which destroys any inspiration for ambition that users have left before they use drugs, and provide means by which people who refuse or are unable to be a productive member of society become wealthy.
Have you ever lived with a drug addict before?

It's a constant life of searching for the next fix, even after the hit they know in X number of hours they will be desiring it...anything not bolted down that can be hawked will be if there's a short fall. During the high, depending on the drug, is usually an insane assortment of random emotions and thoughts (including very violent ones) without control or stability. Pretty much all users I've known do anything they can get away with, and the only way to make sure they can't is to get out of the situation or get them out of it. It's like living with an insane toddler, and it gets worse and worse as the addiction deepens (and actual brain damage starts).

Watching some one on Acid is the worst, one girl started to like it...after hawking some stuff around her dorm room (including her roommates stuff) she did a bunch and had a bad trip. Ended up trying to stab people with a knife screaming at the top of her lungs her house was trying to eat her.

Being illegal doesn't make your life bad if you do drugs, it's the fact when people are on drugs they either become stupid or become the biggest %$##^% ever (or both). One only lives only for the drugs when an addict, everything else in their life is now expendable...and is expended in the pursuit of getting high.

Last edited by subsound; 12-31-2008 at 04:27 PM..
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Old 12-31-2008, 11:12 PM
 
Location: Pensacola, Fl
656 posts, read 951,378 times
Reputation: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion View Post
Keep believing your own rhetoric....I know better. Drug cartels....yeah Miami Vice...go with your bad self.
Tis not rhetoric my friend, tis only logic and common sense that make me support my position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion View Post
Alcohol is a destructive component in society. I cant argue that. The fact still remains that its LEGAL. You may not feel that it should be, but until they bring back prohibition, we are all going to have to deal with it.
I think we all agree that if alcohol is not taken in moderation then it surely can be a destructive component. And I think it should remain legal; I don't know where you got the idea that I wanted a prohibition on booze. FYI, a prohibition on alcohol will not make the problems associated go away. It'd actually make an easier access to the underage because no one has to show id to buy from a bootlegger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion View Post
As long as there is a demand for something there will be those who take advantage of that demand. That goes for chocolate, peanuts, vegiies and a whole host of other things. Last time I checked none of those took the life of the user, prompted others to commit acts of atrocities against man kind, and left the user in a stupor much like a walking Zombie. Yeah lets legalize drugs....a real no brainer there !
And making something illegal makes the demand go away? Then how would you explain all the strung out addicts, users, and crackheads and the abundance of cartels, mafias, and street hustlers that just happen to have the supply? I wonder, do they just not count?? If you swallow a piece of chocolate, peanut, and or veggie the wrong way and choke it could very well take the life of the user.

Chocolate prompts people to kill. Just look at these two: Teenagers killed man over chocolate bar | Top News | Reuters

You seem to be keen on blaming drugs for killing people instead of blaming people killing people. Crack cannot pick up a baseball bat and bash someone's head in. Meth cannot stab someone to death and take their money. Alcohol cannot drive a car and run two innocent people over; but PEOPLE can. Drugs may impair someone's judgement, but at the end of the day after everything is said and done, it is the person's CHOICE to do a certain act. It's always someone's fault or it's always the fault of an object that caused someone to act a certain way when the fact of the matter is that it was the person's choice and they are not taken responsibility for their actions. That's like blaming a gun for shooting someone when in fact it was the person that pulled the trigger. Inanimate objects and things can't take harm individuals and take the lives of others; but the wielder can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion View Post
One other thing...in War most of the time you know your enemies. The drug issue stopped being a war a long time ago. Its now an epidemic and the sad thing is that its having some horrific long standing effects on our communities and the children who inhabit them.
My point was that this wasn't a 'war on drugs' (hence the quotations) and shouldn't have been called so from the beginning. My point was that we need to stop treating the symptom as if it is the disease. My point was that no good can be had from throwing away billions and billions away each year on this 'war'. My proof? The millions that are still on drugs and are not thinking about quiting anytime soon. This has always been an epidemic and it's sad that some are just now starting to realize this. It's obvious that prohibition is not working, so please, can you at least propose to me what you think would work to stop or at least slow down this epidemic??

Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion View Post
Its not about politics, views, money, or keeping anyone down. Its about having enough common sense to realize that allowing any substance to be manufactured and sold for the sole purpose of getting high, would be a msitake in an of itself. You think we would have learned that lesson given all the deaths attributed to Alcohol each year.
And it's about having enough common sense to see that the way we are going at this right now isn't working! The substances are already being manufactured and sold for the purpose of getting high and they are still illegal. Can you address that fact? Or does it just not count! You think we would think of a different innovative way to solve this problem rather than keeping it the way it is and allowing the number of those addicted and becoming addicted to drugs amount.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion View Post
Drugs are illegal for a reason and they should stay that way.
Say Hi to Crockett and Tubbs for me will ya?
I'll tell you em said happy new year too!

[quote=winterscorpion;6762022]
Quote:
Originally Posted by allah truth View Post
Oh, I am passionate about what I write. I wouldnt write it otherwise. I guess the same could be said for your postings. I may not always subscribe to your beliefs, but you still hold true to your convictions. Much respect.
I respect that you are passionate about what you believe although I disagree about it. I like disagreeing with people; it's fun!
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Old 01-01-2009, 12:32 PM
 
Location: mid wyoming
1,985 posts, read 5,861,904 times
Reputation: 1815
The government finds it hard to tax drugs and control them. So it outlawed them.
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Old 01-01-2009, 12:51 PM
 
1,570 posts, read 1,601,371 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by leftydan6 View Post
Prohibition leads dealers to kill each other (and innocent bystanders) over their territory/customers because they cannot go to the police for protection.

Say what you will about the drugs themselves, the prohibition is the real problem, it's what causes the majority of crime in America. Remember the 1920s and 1930s (from history books/movies)? Well, the reason why gangs had so much power was because of the prohibition of a substance far more dangerous than Marijuana. The moment Prohibition was repealed, the Mafia lost a ton of its power and was relegated to illegal gambling, prostitution and heroin traffic. Gambling is almost completely out of Mafia hands with the growth of Indian casinos and the legitimization of Las Vegas, prostitution and drug traffic are all that remain of the majority of the traditional organized crime financial base.

By supporting drug prohibition, it's like supporting the Terrorists, the Russian, Mexican and Italian Mafias, the Yakuza, the Triads, the Mexican, the Colombian, the Venezuelan and the Bolivian cartels. This isn't just a local problem, it's an international problem and it's dragging the world economy down and giving power to all the wrong people. Corruption rules because drug money flows so freely.

Prohibition clearly doesn't work, so why do we spend billions when we could be providing jobs and tax income instead?

Moderator cut: please refrain from personal attacks, disagree with ideas instead
You lack serious reading comprehensions. I am FOR drug legalization. And many of your "points" were mine. I am all for legalization because it would mean buyers would go to the store rather than some gangbanger hanging out side some corner.
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Old 01-04-2009, 06:30 AM
 
Location: Wandering the halls aimlessly...Hello? Is anyone there?
307 posts, read 408,370 times
Reputation: 129
Default Ummmm.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by allah truth View Post
I agree with your opinion about them lefty but you can't get frustrated. It will take a lot more then the truth to erase 70 years of propaganda. What they can't realize and wouldn't if they could is the way drug use has been attacked was wrong from the start. All they have done is issolate users from productive society, which destroys any inspiration for ambition that users have left before they use drugs, and provide means by which people who refuse or are unable to be a productive member of society become wealthy. Because it is such a taboo even users that have been "tricked" into drug use are issolated and are treated as scum causing the mindset that is needed to do most drugs. The only people who escape addiction are those that are inspired to. This includes addictions of thought and emotion.
Drugs (Other than medicinal) have been proven time and time again as being the means by which one self destructs. They do this by experimenting at first, then as the addiction developes, so does the need for more and more of the illicit substance. The drug effects the individuals thought process causing them to make irrational and many times dangerous decisions. Perfect example is alcohol. Thats legal yet we have so many who abuse it. Why? It elevates blood pressure, impairs judgement, does tremendous damage to the brain and liver over time and yet people still use it? The revenue that comes from the sale of alcohol does not go to the government, it goes to the alcohol companies who manufacture and distill it. The financial gain that you and several other posters have made reference to would more than likely go to those who manufacture and produce drugs as well.

My whole point here is that we know that if you legalize marijuana or many of the other "soft" drugs, you are opening the door for many more deaths at the hands of those who would be functioning under the influence. Is financial gain worth the death of a child? I dont see it that way. I've said many times that I have seen firsthand what drugs do to folks. Never once have I ever seen a person under the influence save a life. On the flipside of that I've seen many who have taken one and during the detox or sobering up stage, not remember a thing. Was the altered state really worth it?

I've heard mention of drug cartels on this thread. Realistically, the thug mentality has always been there. If it isnt drugs its guns. If it isnt guns, its prostitution and human slavery. The list continues but I think you get my point. Where theres a need, there will be someone willing to risk everything to get rich off of it. These cartels a poster made mention of are thugs who victimize the innocent irregardless of the product. Drugs just happen to be in big demand. They wont go away because you legalize drugs. They'll find another venue to exploit. Its the nature of the beast.

No good can come from legalizing illegal street drugs. Walk a mile in my shoes and I'm sure you'd agree.

Theres no propaganda here....I see it every day.

Peace
Winter
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Old 01-04-2009, 05:45 PM
 
Location: Heartland Florida
9,324 posts, read 23,226,903 times
Reputation: 4895
Drugs are used in medicine. They are not completely worthless by any means. Even poison is legal to have as can be seen in many of our homes. Ever tried to sniff or drink common household chemicals? They can kill. There are many plants outside that can kill if eaten or smoked. The benefit of keeping a few people from drugs by prohibition is outweighed by the cost. More people are harmed by the crime and law enforcement than were by drugs before prohibition. You have to respect the Constitution or you are not a true American. Drug prohibition is like using the constitution as toilet paper. That is why it disgusts me so much. Instead of the current system, if someone is so concerned about drug use, set up a free treatment program where drug users can be medically treated for drug addiction. Under the current system this is impossible.

Remember, for those of you who LOVE drug prohibition, the drug addicts of today clearly show it is a total failure.
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Old 01-05-2009, 11:58 AM
 
Location: San Diego
2,518 posts, read 1,844,514 times
Reputation: 1298
Quote:
Originally Posted by 60-minutes-II View Post
You lack serious reading comprehensions. I am FOR drug legalization. And many of your "points" were mine. I am all for legalization because it would mean buyers would go to the store rather than some gangbanger hanging out side some corner.
I was agreeing with you...I was writing in support of what you said. I was just stating them in a more cohesive and structured way. If you can't tell, I have been on your side the whole time.

BTW, it's comprehension, not comprehensions...
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Old 01-05-2009, 12:20 PM
 
Location: San Diego
2,518 posts, read 1,844,514 times
Reputation: 1298
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion View Post
Drugs (Other than medicinal) have been proven time and time again as being the means by which one self destructs. They do this by experimenting at first, then as the addiction developes, so does the need for more and more of the illicit substance. The drug effects the individuals thought process causing them to make irrational and many times dangerous decisions. Perfect example is alcohol. Thats legal yet we have so many who abuse it. Why? It elevates blood pressure, impairs judgement, does tremendous damage to the brain and liver over time and yet people still use it? The revenue that comes from the sale of alcohol does not go to the government, it goes to the alcohol companies who manufacture and distill it. The financial gain that you and several other posters have made reference to would more than likely go to those who manufacture and produce drugs as well.

My whole point here is that we know that if you legalize marijuana or many of the other "soft" drugs, you are opening the door for many more deaths at the hands of those who would be functioning under the influence. Is financial gain worth the death of a child? I dont see it that way. I've said many times that I have seen firsthand what drugs do to folks. Never once have I ever seen a person under the influence save a life. On the flipside of that I've seen many who have taken one and during the detox or sobering up stage, not remember a thing. Was the altered state really worth it?

I've heard mention of drug cartels on this thread. Realistically, the thug mentality has always been there. If it isnt drugs its guns. If it isnt guns, its prostitution and human slavery. The list continues but I think you get my point. Where theres a need, there will be someone willing to risk everything to get rich off of it. These cartels a poster made mention of are thugs who victimize the innocent irregardless of the product. Drugs just happen to be in big demand. They wont go away because you legalize drugs. They'll find another venue to exploit. Its the nature of the beast.

No good can come from legalizing illegal street drugs. Walk a mile in my shoes and I'm sure you'd agree.

Theres no propaganda here....I see it every day.

Peace
Winter
How will legalizing marijuana lead to deaths? That doesn't make sense. Legalizing drugs will cause deaths from those drugs to fall because of the end of the drug-gang culture.

Vioxx was legal, approved by the government, and it caused up to 50,000 deaths, more than marijuana has in its entire history. Merck creates thousands of jobs (60,000+) and generates over $20,000,000,000 in annual revenue. Even if the "drug companies get all the money" where do you think it goes? To the tax-paying employees and into our stock market.

Why would walking a mile in your shoes make a difference? For me to do that, I would have to close my mind and eyes to everything rational and focus only on the emotional. Why would that be a good thing? The repeal of prohibition led to a whole new industry taking off and generating billions in revenue annually while crushing the organized crime associated with it. Those aren't opinions, those are facts, and Alcohol is far more dangerous and pervasive in society than all those other drugs combined when you look at the facts. Nobody here is saying that LSD, Cocaine, Meth and Heroin are good or should be done by anyone, but we're saying that we're tired of spending so much of our tax money on something so futile and costly to society as a whole. Say what you will, if Cocaine were legalized, the cartels would have no real source of income other than human traffic and moving stolen goods/guns. Eliminating the billions spent on drugs in the black market would make streets safer not just in the US, but throughout Mexico and Central America as well.

BTW, once, right after I smoked some marijuana, I was playing basketball at the rec center and I saw a child falling from the fence about 15 feet high (trying to climb over to retrieve a ball) and I caught him before his head hit the ground. He may not have died, but he could have. There, a life was saved by someone "under the influence"
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Old 01-05-2009, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Pensacola, Fl
656 posts, read 951,378 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion View Post
Drugs (Other than medicinal) have been proven time and time again as being the means by which one self destructs.
So has cigarettes, so has fast food, mtv, bet, vh1, and anything we do in life that can be listed under "pleasure."

Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion View Post
Perfect example is alcohol. Thats legal yet we have so many who abuse it. Why?
Misinformed, uninformed, the forbidden fruit theory, rebellion, natural addiction. They all come into play. If I know more about something and know the dangers of it, I'm less likely to overindulge in said product. Like fast food. I know that if I overindulge on fast food (especially mickey dee's) that I will develop excess fat and cellulite that will not make my legs look pretty along with numerous heart conditions, cholesterol problems, and the like. Since I know this, I'm not going to go crazy with fast food.
Same with Alcohol. I know that if I drink too much I could end up with alcohol poisoning and have to get my stomach pumped or I could end up next to some ugly guy in the morning and not know where I am or what I did. Since I know these things, I'm not going to get hammered.

It would be better if we introduced things like alcohol to children when they are young and teach them about things like drugs. It's not bad parenting to let your child develop a mature and healthy respect for things like alcohol and it's not bad to let them know about drugs and tell them why they shouldn't indulge in things like ecstacy, heroine, or crack. Trying to shelter them from the world all their lives will just entitle them to a rude awakening when they go off to college or move out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion View Post
The revenue that comes from the sale of alcohol does not go to the government, it goes to the alcohol companies who manufacture and distill it. The financial gain that you and several other posters have made reference to would more than likely go to those who manufacture and produce drugs as well.
These business would still have to pay coporate taxes, payroll taxes, etc. etc. If you set the tax high on the product (like it is with booze and cigs) then the government does draw revenue on it. Plus not having to fund a drug war saves money right of the bat. You can think of the taxes from legalization as...royalties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion View Post
My whole point here is that we know that if you legalize marijuana or many of the other "soft" drugs, you are opening the door for many more deaths at the hands of those who would be functioning under the influence.
If legalization were to happen then it would make those who already do it open about it. Not a huge number of people would just start to indulge because it's there. Cigarettes are legal and I can buy them but I'm not going to buy cigs because I don't like them and I don't like the health effects. The group who opposes cigarette companies (forgot their name) can do those awesome commercials on drugs to and educate the public through t.v. like they have with cigarettes. No one is stopping them from doing that and there are going to be laws that restrict advocating against drug use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion View Post
Is financial gain worth the death of a child? I dont see it that way. I've said many times that I have seen firsthand what drugs do to folks. Never once have I ever seen a person under the influence save a life. On the flipside of that I've seen many who have taken one and during the detox or sobering up stage, not remember a thing. Was the altered state really worth it?
The sad thing is, the child will die whether they are legal or still illicit. They are people who drink and drive that hit people, kill children, and ruin lives; and it's still illegal to drink and drive (and that shouldn't change).

Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion View Post
I've heard mention of drug cartels on this thread. Realistically, the thug mentality has always been there. If it isnt drugs its guns. If it isnt guns, its prostitution and human slavery. The list continues but I think you get my point. Where theres a need, there will be someone willing to risk everything to get rich off of it. These cartels a poster made mention of are thugs who victimize the innocent irregardless of the product. Drugs just happen to be in big demand. They wont go away because you legalize drugs. They'll find another venue to exploit. Its the nature of the beast.
Well I'm for legalizing prostitution so that's be another avenue that would immediately be taken away. If you make it harder for the criminal to keep profiting from illegal activity, true they will switch their product. But, most will go to where it's easier to make money (across the border to mexico).

Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion View Post
No good can come from legalizing illegal street drugs. Walk a mile in my shoes and I'm sure you'd agree.

Theres no propaganda here....I see it every day.

Peace
Winter
I don't have to walk a mile in your shoes to know that families are destroyed, people die, children are killed, and live are ruined ALL WHILE DRUGS ARE STILL ILLEGAL. If prohibition is not working, then why won't we try something else?? If legalizatioin is not the way, then what can we do? This is at least my fifth time asking this question and I have yet to recieve an answer. I don't want people to die as the result of drug use. I don't want people to steal to buy drugs. I don't want people to die over drugs. WHAT WE ARE DOING RIGHT NOW IS NOT WORKING!!! So please, somebody, anybody, tell me a purposal that has a chance of working; it's obvious prohibition is not it. The negatives outweigh the positives with prohibition. If legalization is not the way, then what is?
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