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Old 11-09-2008, 03:49 AM
 
Location: Bethesda
2,876 posts, read 6,017,766 times
Reputation: 1218

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by decafdave But what if your country is wrong?
I know that raping people and / or killing them because you're a serial predator is always wrong, but 'betraying' your country could be the right thing to do.
That is a tricky issue. I'm assuming that I believe my country is in the right-in this hypothetical scenario. But I can't say spare the traitors on the grounds that in principle he would be correct if the country was in the wrong. I suppose it's different in Benelux and Europe as a whole but our founding fathers agreed with my stance.

You're going to eventually bring up the Iraq war so I might as well go ahead lol. First of all, congress never actually declared war. That said, if an American citizen joined the Iraqi insurgency or even Al-Qaida then he should die. Or if his purposeful actions leads to the death or defeat of any American forces.

This is all my opinion, since when it comes to countries and traitors there can be no objectivity. But it's important we don't put too much emphasis on objectivity when it comes to matters such as war. Most of the time there is no right or wrong, it's just us or them.
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Old 11-09-2008, 05:12 AM
 
3,704 posts, read 4,143,939 times
Reputation: 2231
Quote:
Originally Posted by leangk View Post
im sorry this post was soo funny i had to write about it.

your worried about innocents being killed? then how can 1 treason charge during wartime suffice for death? a nation is even more fragile at wartime and more likely to imprison or execute thier citizens (like the french during/after revolution). a government is so shaky, that tonnes of epople ahve been imprisoned just for good measure, just to make sure.

Treason as defined as helping a foreign nation overthrow the government, making war against the country, and spying during wartime. I think that is a reasonable definition of treason.

not comfortable with the governemnt killing people?? who shoudl then. the justice system is just one branch of the government.... to say that is like saying "i dont think the governemnt should controle education, the army or other nessecary things) get my point? unless of course you want renegade vigilantes excercising their own justice??

I'm not comfortable with anyone killing anyone nor am I comfortable with executions being part of law.

and some people in prison with that life prison may ahve been wrongfully accused and think "hey, they think im guilty and i have to protect myself" so he kills someone. should he be executed?

I have no idea what this means. I'm assuming English is not your first language. Can you please elaborate?

the most effective way to ensure this punishment is as soemone suggested, anyone who has over a certain amount of years in prison due to a violent crime. or due to ahving a certain number of convictions for serious crimes. (for example 3). this ensures that peopela re not convicted once (maybe innocently) then put to death. it amkes sure that the odds that some sort of evidence would connect this one person to say 3 crimes outweighs the chance of their innocence.
My text is in bold.
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Old 11-09-2008, 05:27 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,520,600 times
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Originally Posted by decafdave
Quote:
You're going to eventually bring up the Iraq war so I might as well go ahead lol.
I don't need to, cauz mentioning the American Civil War would've been enough.
In this war both North & South claimed to be on the right side which resulted in the deadliest war in American history with 620,000 soldier deaths and an undetermined number of civilian casualties.
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Old 11-09-2008, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Bethesda
2,876 posts, read 6,017,766 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by decafdave I don't need to, cauz mentioning the American Civil War would've been enough.
In this war both North & South claimed to be on the right side which resulted in the deadliest war in American history with 620,000 soldier deaths and an undetermined number of civilian casualties.
Yes our civil war is an excellent example of what I'm saying. Neither side was obviously "morally" superior (unless you talk to the "south will rise again" crowd or any product of Northern education that doesn't think for himself) yet for either side, it would have been acceptable to execute traitors.

Let me take this further: our War for independence with Britain. That would be viewed as a "civil war" had we lost. Yet, even if a war is within a country or empire the execution of the treasonous is justified.

I'll bet you are in the slim minority in the Netherlands for supporting capital punishment in any capacity.

It appears we'll have to just agree to disagree.
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Old 11-09-2008, 01:24 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,520,600 times
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Originally Posted by decafdave
Quote:
I'll bet you are in the slim minority in the Netherlands for supporting capital punishment in any capacity.
True, in the Netherlands most would call me a (Nazi) fascist because I'm not against capital punishments like most of the ‘civilised’ people.

Unfortunately most Dutch still live in the illusion that we can cure anything (even serial predators) and that everyone deserves a 2nd (or 3rd and even a 4th) chance.

Last edited by Tricky D; 11-09-2008 at 01:54 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 11-10-2008, 05:04 AM
 
9,912 posts, read 12,186,445 times
Reputation: 7257
Quote:
Originally Posted by decafdave View Post
Where is the backbone?? Afraid to execute because of a backlash is letting the terrorists win. If you've forgotten the definition of a terrorist is someone who seeks to press their will by terrorizing. I suppose by your reckoning the entire West should just go ahead and institute Sharia Law and invite our new radical overlords over to collect tribute! All in the name of saving a few potential victims?

Frankly, I don't think Indonesians give a rat's a** about Australians having to sit around not visiting Bali (aside from your AUD)


Ha! You ask me where the backbone is as you regurgitate tired old Bushisms at me? Classic!
Who said anything about being afraid? I simply stated that I thought executing the bombers was a waste of time and was only giving them what they wanted, playing into their hands. As for the rest of what you've attributed to me well perhaps you should read what I actually said and quit assuming.
As for the "letting the terrorists win" THEY ARE WINNING. They have changed the way the world operates, you only have to go to an airport to see that they're winning. And how many of them have been trained by the very countries they're now terrorizing? With weapons supplied and paid for by those same countries?

As far as I'm concerned "a few potential victims" is a few too many while these idiot governments bicker back and forth never really attempting to solve these issues because they don't really want to. There's EVIL to be fought against. And money to be made. Perhaps if you feel so strongly you could volunteer to be one of the next lot of victims? Or your family? Your kids? Your wife?

You are right about the Indonesian government not giving a rats though. They've been supporting and condoning terrorism for years and this latest action is just another way of stirring the pot. Sound familiar? It should.

The Balinese on the other hand are deeply concerned about the drop off in tourism since both Bali bombings. It is affecting their livelihoods NOT to mention their lives. It's not like they didn't lose people in the bombings too.
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:45 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,520,600 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by moonshadow
Quote:
They've been supporting and condoning terrorism for years and this latest action is just another way of stirring the pot.
As a matter of fact the Indonesians are the most successful in combating Islam fanaticism by combating the fanaticism and not the religion.
They fight Islam fundamentalism with the Koran itself instead of screaming that the Islam is a backwards religion ( like a certain crazy Dutch lunatic), which is only logical because Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world.
It is the Islam that provides the many different Indonesians (each island is a different subculture) a common identity and Islam fundamentalism is bad for the political climate in Indonesia.
If The Indonesian government can't contain the Islam fundamentalists it probably would set off the national political powder keg, because each island will demand their own autonomy instead of being ruled by a central Indonesian government.
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Old 11-10-2008, 07:35 AM
 
Location: Aiken S.C
765 posts, read 1,681,247 times
Reputation: 388
Can you folks get even more off topic??? I thought this thread was the death penalty not Islamic terrorism....
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Old 11-10-2008, 07:43 AM
 
3,566 posts, read 4,491,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elvislives View Post
Can you folks get even more off topic??? I thought this thread was the death penalty not Islamic terrorism....
That is where I am at. I thought this was actually going to be semi-decent. Unfortunately, it started to fall apart when there began to be the usual one liners dropped with absolutely no thought process at all or any intention of thought process.
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Old 11-10-2008, 08:22 AM
 
Location: arizona on the border
687 posts, read 2,496,561 times
Reputation: 361
Perhaps I will contradict my prior statement here, for this is a problem without end, thus the "solutions" only seem to bring more issues.

It is not the sadistic offender that is costing us billions of dollars per year in the penal system. Even the most common criminal is repulsed by these unfortunates, many times because they have suffered at some time in their own lives at the hands of such personalities. Our prisons are overwhelmed with drug users, thiefs and generic "gangbangers", those who prey upon property and opportunity more than individuals directly. As repeat offenders, they have a lifestyle of returning to the walls where many have direct family and consider it "normal" to do so. IMO this is the criminal we need to be concerned about the cost of incarcerating for life, except it is life at 5-10 year periods.
Understand that I've no objection to the death penalty as a consequence for the most grotesque of acts. But it is not a deterrent to crime.

So what actions can be taken to change the direction of these inmates?
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