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Old 11-05-2008, 05:33 PM
 
Location: In a house
5,230 posts, read 7,321,196 times
Reputation: 2558

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Quote:
Originally Posted by elvislives View Post
The conservitive input is what has gotten us to the place we are today and it's not a good place at all.

How do you figure that? Surely you cant think Bush & his administration was conservative? Besides the democrats had ALOT to do with the situation. Our gov't is at fault, both parties.
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Old 11-05-2008, 11:51 PM
 
2,141 posts, read 7,037,511 times
Reputation: 1248
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrs1885 View Post
52k was about 5 years ago. We're closer to 100k now. So, safe right? Unless those numbers keep falling. Initially 250k, then 200k, then Biden starts talking 150k. There's a big moving target when it comes to what is middle class.

My point is, for those on that 200-250k line, or the 150-200k line, where's the incentive to work harder?
The incentive to work harder is that you can own a home, travel, put money away for your kids' education, buy things that you may want versus need, have money set aside for emergencies and not have to rely others. There will always be an incentive to work hard if you don't want to live on government assistance. Government assistance may be enough for the basics in life, but it's not enough for the extras in life. If you want the extras, you'll have to work. I work hard at my job, earn less than $100K and will continue to work hard. If my taxes go up to help support other Americans, so be it. My standard of living will still be higher than someone on welfare. I drive past housing projects all of the time and no matter how much my taxes go up, I would never want to live in one of these. Or have food stamps or have to forgo my 2 vacations a year, etc.
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Old 11-06-2008, 07:26 AM
 
Location: Houston
529 posts, read 1,140,631 times
Reputation: 373
Somehow I get the feeling that most people who complain about what Obama wants to do, doesn't understand the progressive tax system well and much less what the new tax plan (if happens) would mean for them.
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Old 11-06-2008, 07:49 AM
 
Location: In a house
5,230 posts, read 7,321,196 times
Reputation: 2558
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinolala View Post
The incentive to work harder is that you can own a home, travel, put money away for your kids' education, buy things that you may want versus need, have money set aside for emergencies and not have to rely others. There will always be an incentive to work hard if you don't want to live on government assistance. Government assistance may be enough for the basics in life, but it's not enough for the extras in life. If you want the extras, you'll have to work. I work hard at my job, earn less than $100K and will continue to work hard. If my taxes go up to help support other Americans, so be it. My standard of living will still be higher than someone on welfare. I drive past housing projects all of the time and no matter how much my taxes go up, I would never want to live in one of these. Or have food stamps or have to forgo my 2 vacations a year, etc.
True but why should we work harder for the same or less return?
JMHO but charity should be voluntary. If people want to support the less fortunate they will. If you need a law to force them to then you are stealing.
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Old 11-06-2008, 07:51 AM
 
Location: In a house
5,230 posts, read 7,321,196 times
Reputation: 2558
Quote:
Originally Posted by elikhom View Post
Somehow I get the feeling that most people who complain about what Obama wants to do, doesn't understand the progressive tax system well and much less what the new tax plan (if happens) would mean for them.
I'v seen his plan. It CANNOT work without raiseing taxes on the middle clas. Why do you think his proponents talk about it putting taxes on par with what they were when they were higher? Typical political BS.
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Old 11-06-2008, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Exit 14C
1,555 posts, read 3,637,871 times
Reputation: 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by PreAristotle View Post
Say you got an A in a class, whereas someone else who didn't show up as much, didn't put in as much effort, and rarely even spoke in class, got a C. Now, to be "fair" the teacher takes from your grade and gives to theirs, giving you both B's.
Keeping with the analogy, here's how I'd do it. First off, I wouldn't have grades. And since you're so good at your work and smart, I'd have you spend part of your time helping the guy who is struggling in the class--you'd be able to function a bit as a teacher, too. The folks who are helping others more would get some kind of perks--maybe first choice on something with a limited supply, for example. Then you'd both be better off for it, you've got a better team, and the guy you helped out can now help out others who need it. That way the competition is focused on helping others out and building a better team rather than only trying to further yourself. The team analogy works well--the guy who is always just trying to hit a home run, score the goal, etc. for himself is more likely to be on the losing team than the guy who is tailoring his actions to furthering everyone.
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Old 11-06-2008, 12:05 PM
 
Location: The ends DO NOT justify the means!!!
4,783 posts, read 3,021,576 times
Reputation: 1335
Funding, helping, or in any other way shielding the less productive, weaker, or inferior from the process of natural selection used throughout nature is not only stupid, but indeed unnatural. No species would survive long if it acted like we humans. Our "compassion" at least on a societal level is what guarantees our own extinction. We foster the continued growth of our most inferior traits and continue to poison our gene pool through our artificial resistance to natural process. Socialism only ensures that the worst of our species flourishes.
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Old 11-06-2008, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,708 posts, read 7,561,996 times
Reputation: 1023
There is no socialism in the United States, except in the banking industry, where the elites so badly managed their businesses and the regulators were so clueless and manifested such malfeasance, that now Barney Frank and Co are members of the board.

The United States is a welfare state, as are all the advanced democracies around the world. Welfare state and socialism are two different things.
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Old 11-06-2008, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Denver
2,970 posts, read 6,151,450 times
Reputation: 4825
mrs1885 -- no offense but you sound pretty selfish to me. Do you donate your time or money to the clinics or other people that helped you back when you were struggling?

I'd gladly pay more in taxes to help out those who need it. I don't think going to a clinic is "taking a handout", nor are programs like WIC, etc. Lots of young struggling families need these programs.

And that teacher analogy is lame. I like Tungsten's version better.
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Old 11-06-2008, 12:26 PM
 
Location: San Diego
2,518 posts, read 1,845,510 times
Reputation: 1298
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrs1885 View Post
It’s taken me more than 11 years to get to the point I’m at now. And I’m still certainly not rich. Heck, I barely, if even, am at ‘middle class’ standards financially. But I’ve worked hard and come far and I’ve done it on my own, without government hand outs. I didn’t accept food stamps or welfare checks or public housing.

I started as a young single mother after finally calling my marriage quits when my alcoholic husband was arrested for molesting a 13 year old girl. That was the final straw, and I did what I could to get my children and myself as far from that situation as I could.

I’d married young, had children young, and intended to be a stay at home mom until they all were school age. I certainly hadn’t planned on the situation turning the way it had. But it did and I worked with what I had.

I was very fortunate to have a wonderful mother-in-law to help me with the children’s care while I worked. With no real experience the best I could do was a clerk job, part time bringing in less than $10,000 a year. I did have to use the local clinic for my children’s annual check ups and shots. But as I was able to work more hours, get small pay raises, etc., I began making co-payments toward their expenses.

I’m not saying it was easy. I had to make plenty sacrifices. I couldn’t afford to rent a home in a nice neighborhood. Instead I bought a 1960s model single wide 2 bedroom trailer in the worst section of town. I hated where I lived, but my mortgage was less than $200 a month, and all I could afford. I drove $300 cars until they were no longer worth putting money into them to keep them on the road. I certainly couldn’t afford payments for a vehicle. I didn’t have cable TV. I didn’t have a cell phone. Most definitely didn’t have internet or a computer. Didn’t even have long distance on my home phone. Meals were enough to fill us up, but there were seldom left-overs. My kids never went hungry but they didn’t get steak and ribs either.

And after a couple years of working hard, proving myself as a dedicated, responsible employee, I was able to land a job as a civilian deputy for my local sheriff’s office. The pay was more than double what I was making hourly, and full time. I finally had benefits for my children and didn’t need to use a clinic. And I was able to move to a better place. I found a great deal on a foreclosed home that needed a good bit of work, but it was a real house, not a trailer, and it was in a better neighborhood and I could afford it.

I spent 4 years at the SO, working up to $52,000 a year by putting in 70 hours a week, raising 4 kids alone. My ex stopped paying child support. I eventually re-married. I left the SO eventually and went to banking, and then into the hospitality field. That’s where I am now, in accounting for a major hotel chain. I was hired to be trained to take my boss’ position as the Controller which would double my salary.

But now, with Obama’s new plan, if I get his job, between the pay for that and my husband’s social security, I’ll be taxed to death. I’ve worked hard to get where I am, and I never accepted government hand outs or had that entitlement attitude that’s so prevalent these days. And the fact that they think they can take what I worked so hard to acquire and hand it to some sleaze ball that won’t get off his couch because he thinks he’s too good to be a fry cook at McDonald’s just burns me up. I’d been all set to go to college and get my accounting and business management degrees, something I’ve always dreamed of. But now, why bother? So I can keep working hard and achieve something, make more money for the new government to take away to give to those they think deserve it, even though they’ve done nothing??

I did it the American way. I earned it. I worked hard. I had to prove myself in a field for 4 years that was largely dominated by men. And do it while raising 4 young kids. So why now do I get punished? Why do the liberal socialist Democrats think it’s their right to take the money I worked so hard for? If I can do it, why can’t Joe Blow get off the couch and do it too? It’s not like there aren’t any jobs. I don’t care that it’s not what you want to do. Sometimes being a grown up is about doing what you have to do.

And what do you think the chances are that these liberals who think we should take from the ‘rich’ and give to the ‘poor’ are filling out the EZ form on their taxes?? I mean if they think giving up their income in taxes is the right thing to do, stop itemizing on your taxes. Just tell the ‘gov what you made and let them take what they want. Oh, but then they’d get taxed instead of us and that’s not how they want this to play, now is it?

Am I angry? Disappointed? Frustrated? Scared? Oh, you betcha…..

Do you make $200,000 a year?

If not, you're just foolish for thinking you wont be better off with Obama as president. He's going to lower taxes on anyone making $200,000 or less. If you believe otherwise, you've been fooled by right-wing propaganda. Even if you do make $250,000+, it's only going to be a 3% increase on all money OVER $250,000 that you make. So if you make $300,000 (which makes you rich by any normal standard, even with 4 kids and a deadbeat husband), you'll just face an increase of $1,500 on your taxes. If you make $300,000 and you can't afford a $1,500 tax increase, you need to hire a financial advisor.

It's funny how the most ignorant are the most scared, but all it would take is about 5 minutes of research to realize how wrong they are.
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