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Old 11-06-2008, 12:27 PM
 
2,653 posts, read 4,595,750 times
Reputation: 1893

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrs1885 View Post
Itís taken me more than 11 years to get to the point Iím at now. And Iím still certainly not rich. Heck, I barely, if even, am at Ďmiddle classí standards financially. But Iíve worked hard and come far and Iíve done it on my own, without government hand outs. I didnít accept food stamps or welfare checks or public housing.

I started as a young single mother after finally calling my marriage quits when my alcoholic husband was arrested for molesting a 13 year old girl. That was the final straw, and I did what I could to get my children and myself as far from that situation as I could.

Iíd married young, had children young, and intended to be a stay at home mom until they all were school age. I certainly hadnít planned on the situation turning the way it had. But it did and I worked with what I had.

I was very fortunate to have a wonderful mother-in-law to help me with the childrenís care while I worked. With no real experience the best I could do was a clerk job, part time bringing in less than $10,000 a year. I did have to use the local clinic for my childrenís annual check ups and shots. But as I was able to work more hours, get small pay raises, etc., I began making co-payments toward their expenses.

Iím not saying it was easy. I had to make plenty sacrifices. I couldnít afford to rent a home in a nice neighborhood. Instead I bought a 1960s model single wide 2 bedroom trailer in the worst section of town. I hated where I lived, but my mortgage was less than $200 a month, and all I could afford. I drove $300 cars until they were no longer worth putting money into them to keep them on the road. I certainly couldnít afford payments for a vehicle. I didnít have cable TV. I didnít have a cell phone. Most definitely didnít have internet or a computer. Didnít even have long distance on my home phone. Meals were enough to fill us up, but there were seldom left-overs. My kids never went hungry but they didnít get steak and ribs either.

And after a couple years of working hard, proving myself as a dedicated, responsible employee, I was able to land a job as a civilian deputy for my local sheriffís office. The pay was more than double what I was making hourly, and full time. I finally had benefits for my children and didnít need to use a clinic. And I was able to move to a better place. I found a great deal on a foreclosed home that needed a good bit of work, but it was a real house, not a trailer, and it was in a better neighborhood and I could afford it.

I spent 4 years at the SO, working up to $52,000 a year by putting in 70 hours a week, raising 4 kids alone. My ex stopped paying child support. I eventually re-married. I left the SO eventually and went to banking, and then into the hospitality field. Thatís where I am now, in accounting for a major hotel chain. I was hired to be trained to take my bossí position as the Controller which would double my salary.

But now, with Obamaís new plan, if I get his job, between the pay for that and my husbandís social security, Iíll be taxed to death. Iíve worked hard to get where I am, and I never accepted government hand outs or had that entitlement attitude thatís so prevalent these days. And the fact that they think they can take what I worked so hard to acquire and hand it to some sleaze ball that wonít get off his couch because he thinks heís too good to be a fry cook at McDonaldís just burns me up. Iíd been all set to go to college and get my accounting and business management degrees, something Iíve always dreamed of. But now, why bother? So I can keep working hard and achieve something, make more money for the new government to take away to give to those they think deserve it, even though theyíve done nothing??

I did it the American way. I earned it. I worked hard. I had to prove myself in a field for 4 years that was largely dominated by men. And do it while raising 4 young kids. So why now do I get punished? Why do the liberal socialist Democrats think itís their right to take the money I worked so hard for? If I can do it, why canít Joe Blow get off the couch and do it too? Itís not like there arenít any jobs. I donít care that itís not what you want to do. Sometimes being a grown up is about doing what you have to do.

And what do you think the chances are that these liberals who think we should take from the Ďrichí and give to the Ďpoorí are filling out the EZ form on their taxes?? I mean if they think giving up their income in taxes is the right thing to do, stop itemizing on your taxes. Just tell the Ďgov what you made and let them take what they want. Oh, but then theyíd get taxed instead of us and thatís not how they want this to play, now is it?

Am I angry? Disappointed? Frustrated? Scared? Oh, you betchaÖ..
Thank you for illustrating one of the biggest points that is always lost in tax debates. People tend to think that everybody stays in one place or bracket on the income tax tables their whole lives. Some do, but most move in an arc, making less when young, moving up in their 30's & 40's, Peaking out in the 50's then declining back down thru retirement. Your story is more admirable then most given the situations you have overcome, but proves the essentail point.

Most individuals will have times in their lives when they are lower income & times when they are closer to the top. The more people realize this the less they may be so eager to "soak the rich". Its easy to portray people with higher incomes as bon-bon eating ner' do well's, but the reality is most people who work hard will eventually spend some time at the higher end of the income range & of the tax table for some portion of their working lives.
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Old 11-06-2008, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Exit 14C
1,555 posts, read 3,637,381 times
Reputation: 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by irspow View Post
Funding, helping, or in any other way shielding the less productive, weaker, or inferior from the process of natural selection used throughout nature is not only stupid, but indeed unnatural. No species would survive long if it acted like we humans. Our "compassion" at least on a societal level is what guarantees our own extinction. We foster the continued growth of our most inferior traits and continue to poison our gene pool through our artificial resistance to natural process. Socialism only ensures that the worst of our species flourishes.
You've got about 15-20 dubious philosophical ideas wrapped up in only 5 sentences. That's pretty good.
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Old 11-06-2008, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Philaburbia
31,164 posts, read 57,288,199 times
Reputation: 52030
Quote:
Originally Posted by irspow View Post
It is now, and always will be, immoral to use government force to confiscate the wealth of ANY person for the sake of benefiting someone else.
Isn't that what taxes ... do? Therefore, taxes are immoral?

Any tax. All tax. Taxes take money from individual workers and pool it to benefit society as a whole.

And that's immoral?

Think about it the next time you hit a pothole.
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Old 11-06-2008, 12:39 PM
 
Location: The ends DO NOT justify the means!!!
4,783 posts, read 3,020,853 times
Reputation: 1335
Tungsten, thanks! I always try my best, haha. I stand by my statements. Where exactly do you disagree?

Ohiogirl81, Hi. No not every tax is immoral. If it is used to fund something that benefits EVERYBODY, than that tax is fine. Any tax collected to fund special interests is immoral. The problem arises when people say that taxing one group of people to help a different group of people is fair. We can certainly disagree, but I will never feel that that is morally correct.
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Old 11-06-2008, 12:48 PM
 
Location: San Diego
2,518 posts, read 1,844,964 times
Reputation: 1298
Also, it's clear that people really don't understand progressive taxes.
Your first portion of money is taxed at the normal rate, only the money after you hit that threshold is taxed at a higher rate.

That way, a person making 249,000 never has more money than a person making 251,000 even if the marginal tax rate is 95%. If you don't understand this, you'll clearly be scared by this tax program. But if you understand how taxes work, you'll realize that the only people who see even a minute increase in taxes are ones who already make a ton of money. Anyone concerned about losing $1,500 when they make $300,000 should be ashamed of themselves because they're either greedy or spoiled. Nobody makes $300,000 a year and struggles to get by without some serious spending issues.
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Old 11-06-2008, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Texas
111 posts, read 245,734 times
Reputation: 83
I think thats one of the best written posts I have ever seen.......you should feel "beat up" and I feel the same way. I was a single parent with two kids for a while with no degree. My ex wouldnt pay child support either (and he is cop!) and I couldnt afford to keep trying to make him. I worked HARD to support my kids and live in a decent place and it worked. They had everything they needed. I finally married a wonderful man who could support us all on his salary so I could go back to school full time, so I did! since the university I attend has the degree program I want to complete totally online we also had a new baby which I get to stay home with while going to school as well.....everythings great right? WRONG....Because we make over the $120k AND I now receive child support from my ex we will be taxed out of this world. We have three kids, college expense, a house etc....we cant afford this and it likely means I will have to return to work because my husbands taxed salary will not be enough for us to live on.....oh, that also means my new baby girl goes to daycare. Its truly fantastic, a working class family trying to better themselves to provide a better life for their children must give up those dreams and the benefits of working so hard to benefit the ones who do not.....oh, and allow a daycare to raise my kids at that. Inspirational isnt it?
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Old 11-06-2008, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Exit 14C
1,555 posts, read 3,637,381 times
Reputation: 390
irspow, it's kinda too much to get into especially as I'm getting ready to go out of town for a couple weeks, but quickly looking through it again, among other things, I disagree with:

* The way you're defining weakness and inferiority,
* Your belief in social Darwinism
* Your use of the term "natural"
* Your belief based on your use of the term "natural" that natural things are better
* Your unresearched statements about other kinds of animals
* Your belief that humans are "guaranteed extinction"
* Your apparent belief that there are things that are objectively inferior
* Your apparent purism
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Old 11-06-2008, 01:01 PM
 
Location: San Diego
2,518 posts, read 1,844,964 times
Reputation: 1298
Quote:
Originally Posted by texgrl View Post
I think thats one of the best written posts I have ever seen.......you should feel "beat up" and I feel the same way. I was a single parent with two kids for a while with no degree. My ex wouldnt pay child support either (and he is cop!) and I couldnt afford to keep trying to make him. I worked HARD to support my kids and live in a decent place and it worked. They had everything they needed. I finally married a wonderful man who could support us all on his salary so I could go back to school full time, so I did! since the university I attend has the degree program I want to complete totally online we also had a new baby which I get to stay home with while going to school as well.....everythings great right? WRONG....Because we make over the $120k AND I now receive child support from my ex we will be taxed out of this world. We have three kids, college expense, a house etc....we cant afford this and it likely means I will have to return to work because my husbands taxed salary will not be enough for us to live on.....oh, that also means my new baby girl goes to daycare. Its truly fantastic, a working class family trying to better themselves to provide a better life for their children must give up those dreams and the benefits of working so hard to benefit the ones who do not.....oh, and allow a daycare to raise my kids at that. Inspirational isnt it?

You make over $120,000 in Texas, therefore you're just living above your means. Your expenses outweigh your income and not because of taxes, but because you have poor spending habits. Regardless, Obama's tax plan would help you, not hurt you. It would decrease your taxes (because you make less than $200,000) and it would also provide you benefits for your kids going to college and for the health coverage you need. If your income increases to the point where you will be taxed more, the extra income will be more than enough to cover it. The more you make, the more you keep...no matter how high the marginal rate is, your take home income will never go down as your pre-tax income increases.

PS Cops make terrible husbands/boyfriends. I've known 4 women who dated cops, 3 were abused and the other was neglected. One cop actually stabbed my ex (when they were dating) in the leg with a dinner knife one night when he was drunk. My closest friend in college had both parents serving as senior members of the New Orleans PD and his father was highly corrupt and a terrible husband. Being a cop does not make a person a good person.

Firefighters are far more heroic.
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Old 11-06-2008, 01:10 PM
 
Location: The ends DO NOT justify the means!!!
4,783 posts, read 3,020,853 times
Reputation: 1335
Tungsten,

Thanks for setting me straight. Really. We can disagree, that is fine. I won't get mad or anything, I was just curious about your objections.

I define weakness and inferiority as the inability to be successful in an environment where most others are.

I believe in natural selection as the fastest and most efficient way to evolve into a superior version of the current incarnation.

When I am speaking of natural selection and animals, I am only referring to the natural avoidance of reproducing with the less productive among them or wasting effort on such things as sharing resources on helping the less productive.

Yes, I believe that humans, like every other living species has a finite existence.
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Old 11-06-2008, 01:23 PM
 
878 posts, read 1,846,070 times
Reputation: 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by leftydan6 View Post
Also, it's clear that people really don't understand progressive taxes.
You're right that people really don't understand progressive taxes.

A flat tax rate, e.g. 25%, means that every person, everywhere, pays $0.25 on every dollar of income. A person making $100k/year pays twice as much as a person making $50k/year.

The progressive tax rate says that if you make more money, then you have to pay a higher percentage of that income. If you make $50k this year, then your tax rate is 25%. But if you make $100k this year, then your tax rate is (for example) 30%. The high wage earner therefore pays more than twice as much in taxes, despite only having twice the income.

The progressive tax system is substanatively unfair, and punishes people who create wealth in the economy.
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