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Old 11-06-2008, 01:33 PM
 
Location: San Diego
2,518 posts, read 1,844,964 times
Reputation: 1298

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Quote:
Originally Posted by zman0 View Post
You're right that people really don't understand progressive taxes.

A flat tax rate, e.g. 25%, means that every person, everywhere, pays $0.25 on every dollar of income. A person making $100k/year pays twice as much as a person making $50k/year.

The progressive tax rate says that if you make more money, then you have to pay a higher percentage of that income. If you make $50k this year, then your tax rate is 25%. But if you make $100k this year, then your tax rate is (for example) 30%. The high wage earner therefore pays more than twice as much in taxes, despite only having twice the income.

The progressive tax system is substanatively unfair, and punishes people who create wealth in the economy.
Thank you for proving my point. People don't understand progressive taxes. Say the cutoff was at exactly $50,000. The first 50k would pay $12,500 in taxes, the next 50k would pay $15,000 for a total of $27,500 instead of $25,000. That's a small increase for an amount of money that could go a lot further in the hands of the needy than in someone's IRA.

Your tax rate is not 30% for all the money you make, only the money above that threshold. So while you pay a slightly higher % of your income in taxes, your income is going to be higher than those who pay less. The extra 5% on your next $50,000 isn't going to affect you as much as an extra 5% on someone making less money. A person making $15,000 needs as much of their money as possible to survive, a person making $150,000 obviously needs a lower % of their income to survive. Without a progressive tax system, people at the lower rates would go bankrupt or we'd run out of money for government services like Defense and Roads.
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Old 11-06-2008, 01:58 PM
 
Location: The ends DO NOT justify the means!!!
4,783 posts, read 3,020,853 times
Reputation: 1335
Quote:
Originally Posted by leftydan6 View Post
That's a small increase for an amount of money that could go a lot further in the hands of the needy than in someone's IRA.
And it is very reassuring that people feel like they have the moral authority to make that determination for someone else. Sick.
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Old 11-06-2008, 02:38 PM
 
Location: San Diego
2,518 posts, read 1,844,964 times
Reputation: 1298
Quote:
Originally Posted by irspow View Post
And it is very reassuring that people feel like they have the moral authority to make that determination for someone else. Sick.
No, what is sick is the greed in this country of those who already have so much. We have a very expensive government (defense, a major focus of the conservative right is the most expensive piece) and we need money to pay for it. If we set a flat tax, the poor can't afford to live at a rate that's high enough for us to actually pay for the necessary services. Tell a minimum wage worker that they need to pay MORE taxes because some guy who makes 10x as much didn't want to see his taxes go up 2.5%. The disparity of wealth in this country is worse than any other first world nation. If a progressive tax system is so bad for the rich, how have our rich gotten so much more wealthy than our poor? Wouldn't it benefit the rich to have the poor being able to spend their money? Wouldn't THAT help the economy more than some money being stuffed in a 2035 target fund that wont help the economy in any way?
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Old 11-06-2008, 02:44 PM
 
Location: The ends DO NOT justify the means!!!
4,783 posts, read 3,020,853 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leftydan6 View Post
No, what is sick is the greed in this country of those who already have so much.
And it is just as sick for one group of people to arbitrarily define "greed" and then to set about punishing that group because of their individual opinion.
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:20 PM
 
Location: San Diego
2,518 posts, read 1,844,964 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irspow View Post
And it is just as sick for one group of people to arbitrarily define "greed" and then to set about punishing that group because of their individual opinion.
greed (grd)
n.
An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth:

That's not an arbitrary definition, that's from the dictionary. If you make twice what the average person makes and you still want more, you're greedy. You still get to be rich, just slightly less rich than you would have been. You'll never be less rich than someone who makes less than you on a progressive tax system.
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:30 PM
 
Location: The ends DO NOT justify the means!!!
4,783 posts, read 3,020,853 times
Reputation: 1335
Quote:
Originally Posted by leftydan6 View Post
greed (grd)
n.
An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth:

That's not an arbitrary definition, that's from the dictionary. If you make twice what the average person makes and you still want more, you're greedy. You still get to be rich, just slightly less rich than you would have been. You'll never be less rich than someone who makes less than you on a progressive tax system.
What is not arbitrary about you or anyone else deciding what is more than anyone else needs or deserves? Scary, really!
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:47 PM
 
Location: San Diego
2,518 posts, read 1,844,964 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irspow View Post
What is not arbitrary about you or anyone else deciding what is more than anyone else needs or deserves? Scary, really!
Would you suggest a flat tax? Or how about no taxes at all? Honestly, the Progressive tax is the only way to pay for services without bankrupting the lower and middle classes. A 7% increase on the lower and middle classes would have devastating effects, but that same increase on all money above a certain threshold would not.

If you're rich, you argue with me because you're greedy and you want it all for yourself.
If you're not, you argue with me because you don't know any better. The Flat tax would kill your bottom line to make up for the lost taxes to rich people, and no taxes would eliminate all the services you take for granted.

So which is it, are you greedy or stupid?
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:02 PM
 
878 posts, read 1,846,070 times
Reputation: 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by leftydan6 View Post
Thank you for proving my point. People don't understand progressive taxes. Say the cutoff was at exactly $50,000. The first 50k would pay $12,500 in taxes, the next 50k would pay $15,000 for a total of $27,500 instead of $25,000. That's a small increase for an amount of money that could go a lot further in the hands of the needy than in someone's IRA.
Actually I wasn't proving your point for you.

Lets say the income tax system is structured so that the first $50,000 is taxed at 25%. Then the rate increases to 35% until $100,000.

Someone making $50,000 pays $12,500 in taxes ($50k @ 25%).
Someone making $100,000 pays $12,500 ($50k @ 25%) + $17,500 ($50k @ 35%), for a total of $30,000.

The lower income earner pays 25 cents on every dollar.
The higher income earner pays 30 cents on every dollar.

If the next bracket is 45%, then the person making $150,000 would pay $30,000 (on the first $100k) + $22,500 ($50k @ 45%), paying 35 cents on every dollar he makes.

Every extra dollar earned delivers a lower return (salary) on investment (time). At some point the balance tips.

And what gives you the authority to determine how best to spend my money? I might invest the $5,000 in taxes you want from me into my IRA. But then it would be invested in commercial real estate, which would then provide a job for a construction worker, reduce the rental value in an area, and allow someone to start up a new business.

Or you could give it to someone on welfare who uses the money to buy drugs.

Yes, I'm using extreme examples to make a point.
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:27 PM
 
Location: The ends DO NOT justify the means!!!
4,783 posts, read 3,020,853 times
Reputation: 1335
leftydan6,

Ideally, I would like to see a flat citizen fee that is the exact same for every American. If that equal amount can not be afforded by everyone, than obviously the Federal Regime will have to cut its spending drastically.

So in your world view, I am stupid, because I don't want to fund ridiculous central government planning policies.
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Old 11-06-2008, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,236 posts, read 40,266,772 times
Reputation: 10915
Quote:
Originally Posted by irspow View Post
What is not arbitrary about you or anyone else deciding what is more than anyone else needs or deserves? Scary, really!
Anything past what biology dictates? You need food, water, shelter. Anything beyond that is fluff.
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