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Old 11-19-2008, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Louisiana
1,740 posts, read 2,931,694 times
Reputation: 563

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Too many liberal views in this thread, I'm afraid.

Bust the unions OR require imports to operate with the same constraints. It is foolish or ignorant, perhaps, to relegate the lives of upwards of 300,000 Americans to the trash heap based upon the notion that US automakers do not nor cannot build a quality product. IMO anyone who buys a foreign car is un-American, given the circumstances.
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:50 AM
 
5,273 posts, read 11,910,304 times
Reputation: 5750
Quote:
Originally Posted by masonsdaughter View Post
blazer, let's add management to #4, and put a cap on what the stockholders can make until th loan is repaid and i'm with ya on this.
amen!!
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Old 11-19-2008, 12:07 PM
Status: "Done with the 100s (hopefully)?" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: East Central Phoenix
5,411 posts, read 8,297,980 times
Reputation: 5760
There should be no bailouts of any industry, whether it's banking, manufacturing, real estate, or whatever. Bailouts send the wrong message to the American citizens. When there are screw ups in business, such as the lending institutions & auto industry, and the Feds throw money at the problem, that gives the notion that anybody can get in financial trouble and Uncle Sam will come to the rescue. We bail out the banks & the auto industry ... so who's next??? People will come to EXPECT handouts every time they face tough times.

As an example, several large city mayors are now crying for some bailout money, and the mayor of my city is one of them. Phoenix has been one of the nation's fastest growing metro areas for a long time ... but now with the economic downturn (especially in home construction), our growth rate has significantly slowed recently. This means less tax revenue in the coffers, and the city is in a serious deficit as a result. Well, the city should have PLANNED for recessions & slumps such as this, instead of poorly managing the budget & then expecting the Feds to be their money tree!
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Old 11-19-2008, 12:13 PM
 
48,519 posts, read 81,030,761 times
Reputation: 17978
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosinante View Post
Too many liberal views in this thread, I'm afraid.

Bust the unions OR require imports to operate with the same constraints. It is foolish or ignorant, perhaps, to relegate the lives of upwards of 300,000 Americans to the trash heap based upon the notion that US automakers do not nor cannot build a quality product. IMO anyone who buys a foreign car is un-American, given the circumstances.

People are buying american when buying cars in made in thsi country.In fact many of teh parts o the big htree cars are made i9nh mexico and canada in order to pay those high union salaries. If they are independent busiensses that is Ok but don't expect the normal waged workers to pay for thoise high union wages, In the end ;my guress is that even the 25 billion is not enought to save these conapanies and they need to face the same thing so many ohters have;chapter 11 and reorganization under court control .
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Old 11-20-2008, 12:17 PM
 
8,468 posts, read 13,226,782 times
Reputation: 7511
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLAZER PROPHET View Post
Why are we supporting these bailouts?

AIG, GM, Chrysler, FordÖ The government didnít ask for business plans as to what they would do with the money. They didnít demand they fire the Board of Directors and executive management teams that created the situation. AIG has already burned thru their money and now want more. This is 100% unaccountable money.

And what about the auto makers? The union gets 50% of the money. For what? Is this a union enrichment plan? I talked to my bossís brother yesterday. He lives in Detroit and makes $82/hr ($170,000 per year) in an auto union. Know what he does? He sees to it nut C gets properly attached to bolt F. Who the hell negotiated that deal??? And people want to know why the automakers are bankrupt. Itís not enough they make bad vehicles, but the line workers make more than many doctors.

I have come to the conclusion that our politicians are, literally, out of their minds.
The reason the financial companies got government assistance is because if they were allowed to fail, the entire financial system would've collapsed. With the auto industry, if there's no bailout, the big three will go into bankruptcy. Normally, I would say that's a good thing since it'll force them to restructure. But no one in their right mind is going to buy a car from a company in bankruptcy. If the big three go into bankruptcy, they'll never recover and will eventually dissolve. The auto sector is such a huge part of our economy that allowing it to collapse will have huge repercussions for the rest of our economy.

But you're right. Any bailout should have strict conditions. We shouldn't just be giving cash to companies to continue doing what they've been doing. The big three CEOs claim their companies have a cash crisis and yet all three flew private jets to DC. People badmouth the labor costs for these companies, but ultimately, it was management's fault for agreeing to these deals. I don't blame unions for getting the best deal they could get. If someone is being overpaid for their job, I blame the person who hired them and agreed to that salary. I think if any of these companies really want government assistance, they should go on TV and beg the American people for money. Unlike the goverment, ordinary people actually expect some accountability when they give someone money. Maybe the government can tell these companies "if you want our money, then we're going to be running your company from now on. That way we can be sure you're using that money properly."
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Old 11-20-2008, 05:24 PM
 
Location: City, State
364 posts, read 1,410,720 times
Reputation: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLAZER PROPHET View Post
I agree.

For me, my list of conditions would read something like this:

1) The Board of Directors is fired and an entirely new Board selected by an independent panel will be chosen.

2) Entire executive management team is fired and a new one selected by a panel.

3) Detailed business plan as to how the money will be spent and how it will turn around the company.

4) Union is out. Workers pay will be cut to $40/hr + full benefits until such time as the loan is fully repaid and the company in the black.
I'm curious to know who would be on the panel. Senators? Other politicians? While I agree that this bailout is a huge mistake, I also don't want the government stepping in and telling these companies how to operate. The government controls way too much as it is.
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Old 11-20-2008, 06:19 PM
 
Location: Pensacola, Fl
656 posts, read 951,687 times
Reputation: 373
You know back before this whole bailout thing came about guessed what people in business did. Got back up and didn't ask for a government handout. First time Jack the businessman goes into business, it goes under; but he doesn't give up. Times two and three are no good either. But hey, fourth time, fourth times a charm because Jacky boy hit it off and now he's bringing in big bucks. The government didn't swoop down the first time and save old Jacky boy; nope, Jack had to revise his business plans and start over. So why would we bail out companies like AIG and the Big three? Most would say, "Millions of jobs will be lost! The economy will suffer! America won't be able to get back on it's feet!" But what does condoning these companies actions do? It tells them that Uncle Sam is willing to lend a helping hand when you've had faulty business practices that have run your business into the ground while also raising the National Debt to about 10 trillion after everything is said and done. Either way we go, there will be a rippling effect throughout our economy. Jobs will be lost, people will default on their mortages, some will declare bankruptcy and the like. But what will have the bigger rippling effect? Doing something or not doing something?

I think that if we let these companies hang it will be better in the long run than trying to bail them out with money we don't have. If we continue down this path of bailing out companies that are considered vital to the economy, economists are saying that our own government will be bankrupt within a thirty year time period. That means me, my children, my children's children's, and my children's children's children's will be paying for the selfishness of CEO's today.

Sure jobs will be lost, sure the recession will deepen. But I'd rather have hard times today than have my children and descendants suffer. I would rather have a little less now, so I can have a lot more in the future. It's the fault of these auto companies for not meeting the standard of foreign cars because it cost more to produce a more gas efficient, longer lasting car. Every Ford my family has had, has had a problem with the alternator, the air condition, and the like. Why do you suppose that Honda and Toyota are the only two auto companies that came out with a profit last year? BECAUSE THEY MAKE BETTER CARS. Plain and simple, black and white. American car companies aren't willing to make better cars because they cost more to make. Therefore they make second rate cars (that have the nicest features but depreciate quicker than a worn tennis shoe).

This bailout is the worst idea since the first one. I say let them hang and show others who are doing the same thing that if they don't fly right, the same could happen to them.
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Old 11-20-2008, 08:03 PM
 
5,273 posts, read 11,910,304 times
Reputation: 5750
Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane View Post
The reason the financial companies got government assistance is because if they were allowed to fail, the entire financial system would've collapsed. With the auto industry, if there's no bailout, the big three will go into bankruptcy. Normally, I would say that's a good thing since it'll force them to restructure. But no one in their right mind is going to buy a car from a company in bankruptcy. If the big three go into bankruptcy, they'll never recover and will eventually dissolve. The auto sector is such a huge part of our economy that allowing it to collapse will have huge repercussions for the rest of our economy.

But you're right. Any bailout should have strict conditions. We shouldn't just be giving cash to companies to continue doing what they've been doing. The big three CEOs claim their companies have a cash crisis and yet all three flew private jets to DC. People badmouth the labor costs for these companies, but ultimately, it was management's fault for agreeing to these deals. I don't blame unions for getting the best deal they could get. If someone is being overpaid for their job, I blame the person who hired them and agreed to that salary. I think if any of these companies really want government assistance, they should go on TV and beg the American people for money. Unlike the goverment, ordinary people actually expect some accountability when they give someone money. Maybe the government can tell these companies "if you want our money, then we're going to be running your company from now on. That way we can be sure you're using that money properly."
I had mixed thoughts about the financial bailouts. Money flows from insitution to institution by way of loans and to not bail them out may have been disaaterous. Also, if WAMU would have gone belly up, thee would not have been enough money in FDIC to cover the loss. So I get that one.
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Old 11-20-2008, 08:05 PM
 
5,273 posts, read 11,910,304 times
Reputation: 5750
Quote:
Originally Posted by djkkt6 View Post
I'm curious to know who would be on the panel. Senators? Other politicians? While I agree that this bailout is a huge mistake, I also don't want the government stepping in and telling these companies how to operate. The government controls way too much as it is.

Good question.

I wasn't thinking politicians. We bail out those people every day. I was more thinking businessmen (and businesswomen) with certain reputations and no financial alliances to the particular industry. There a number of ways they can be chosen.
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Old 11-20-2008, 09:09 PM
 
756 posts, read 1,662,260 times
Reputation: 275
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLAZER PROPHET View Post
Why are we supporting these bailouts?

AIG, GM, Chrysler, FordÖ The government didnít ask for business plans as to what they would do with the money. They didnít demand they fire the Board of Directors and executive management teams that created the situation. AIG has already burned thru their money and now want more. This is 100% unaccountable money.

And what about the auto makers? The union gets 50% of the money. For what? Is this a union enrichment plan? I talked to my bossís brother yesterday. He lives in Detroit and makes $82/hr ($170,000 per year) in an auto union. Know what he does? He sees to it nut C gets properly attached to bolt F. Who the hell negotiated that deal??? And people want to know why the automakers are bankrupt. Itís not enough they make bad vehicles, but the line workers make more than many doctors.

I have come to the conclusion that our politicians are, literally, out of their minds.
I too am sick of the bailouts. And on a very personal note, I live in Houston pretty close to the AIG tower. After Hurricane Ike, I did not have power for 11 days; the AIG tower was lit up the night after the storm. Myself and all of my neighbors sat around and couldn't help but talk about, if anyone should have their lights out, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN AIG!!!!
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