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Old 11-24-2008, 07:53 PM
 
Location: Aiken S.C
765 posts, read 1,684,867 times
Reputation: 388

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cap1717 View Post
Interesting post, Mateo, thanks.

To those who cite ACLU, Peta, etc. as "left wing" hate groups. . . you're kidding, right? ACLU protects the civil liberties of ALL AMERICANS, the fact that you may personally disagree that all should have civil liberties does not make them a hate group! Peta, very strange folk, I agree, but they do not kill people! Property damage is a criminal activity, for sure, but I am talking about "plotting assasination", not throwing paint!
ELF bombing.

VICTORIA TAFT: ELF Says it Committed Street of Dreams Bombings. Quick, Put Your Head in the Sand, Portland!
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Old 11-24-2008, 09:40 PM
 
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
8,367 posts, read 8,306,608 times
Reputation: 5906
Quote:
Originally Posted by linicx View Post
Yes, I do see your point and actually do agree to some extent, but I don't think you see mine. Society can have a Great Debate and even enter into social intercourse in polite society. My objection is not the content or the meat on the bone. We can not have a real debate if all we do is use labels to fan the flame of division and hate.
Being of the "progressive" (a.k.a. "liberal") persuasion myself, it seems to me that "tolerance" also includes cutting some of the more "passionate" folks among us, a bit of "slack" when they express themselves. Not everyone can be graceful or articulate, especially when they're trying to talk about "raw" stuff, or maybe they're not even sure about the reasons they feel the way they do.

Unless you're advocating the "Bush Doctrine" of no communication with your adversaries, then what you're suggesting sounds very "P.C." (and Authoritarian) to me. And frankly, that was a big liberal mistake that just alienated everyone and shouldn't be repeated. So some folks (and some forums) play "rougher" than others.... big deal, there aren't any injuries here (except maybe some pride occasionally)!
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Old 11-24-2008, 10:57 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,093,294 times
Reputation: 3718
Wink Political Realities

Quote:
Originally Posted by linicx View Post
There is in my opinion, a underlying ugly current in this country that is below the surface that threatens to erupt into another Civil War. It is fueled by TV and raido entertainers who masquerade as truthful while their rehetoric is couched to enflame passions.

Our country is in big trouble. The "Trickle Down Economics" practiced the last eight years stopped working six weeks ago.

Please do note that a lot of the current problems had their specific genesis in the egalitarian re-distributionist plans of the Clinton Admin, to the specific objections of the now-hated Bush Admin. Actually the system broke down at least 10 years ago, during that Clinton Admin., but like a slow-acting disease, the visible lesions only (conveniently!) showed up just prior to the recent national election. But that's the media's bias for you, eh? Problem is we tend to believe the Alphabet Evening News without any sceptical thinking.

WE THE PEOPLE have to pick ourselves up and help each other and weather this mess together. Volunteer. Help at a food bank, at a nursing home. .... Not everyone lives in sunny California or on a beach in Florida.

I completely, thoroughly and passionately agree with your selfless volunteerism, linicx! Unfortunately, only those of lower income or those who feel entitled make the most noises and demands for such services. The vast/past philanthropy of the American wealthy goes mostly, and purposefully, un-noticed and un-acknowledged by strident Dems. The so-called "rich" are conveniently thought of and relentlessly demonized as as "the problem". We'll soon see what our new "majority socially evolved culture", complete with "change for change's sake" will be like without their largess. You heard it here first...

It's gonna get worse before it gets better. (I suspect that it may never get better. It's the end of an era, IMO). There has been no President in American history that ever walked into an economic meltdown of this proportion while we were fighting two wars. WE HAVE TO HELP OURSELVES AND EACH OTHER. (Note: He didn't just walk in. He wanted the job. Ego?).

It isn't going to go away and there is a large possibility we may lose pensions, medical care and maybe even SSI or SS before it is over.
Given the new or improved entitlements tantalyzingly promised by Mr. Obama, and that there will be an ever-larger dependant population made up of previously employed taxpayers, new retirees, our Middle-East war Disabled, or mega-corporate lay-off'ers, it has to all go away.

From my selfish perspective, having paid into all the "systems" for years, I feel fortunate that I'm now able to tap into some of the promised retirement safety net. Those of you under, ohhh say... 50, will probably not see any of these benefits absent a total abandonment of any immigration control. Or vast new increases in predatory, confiscatory re-distributionist taxation rates. That's been the solution in Kanada, Britain and elsewhere, where they've thrown open the gates to any and all immigrants, legal or otherwise, criminals or not, educated or not, to support their retirement, government health and social entitlement programs. Particularly, I note, government employee's retirement and healthcare programs. They come first, obviously!


Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasandy View Post
I suppose "we the people" are going to be united by pulling money from one group to give to another. Will the middle class be outraged when (the government) pulls money from them to give to the "poor", working or not? What happened to the idea of the whole country working together instead of taking from each other?

We don't have a very good game plan for unity in the future.
I predict, floridasandy, quite conservatively, food riots, employment line riots, truck driver strikes, vast transportation disruptions, and on and on. Throw on top of that a well-timed and multiple-event terrorist strike of,, say, 5 or 10 dirty bombs at key cities, plus a bit of national power grid disruption in say, the middle of a particularly bad winter storm, and....?????

BTW, linicx, my sort of idle chit-chat would get me tossed into the slammer in China. So far though we can still talk about it here, and I feel you should be glad. Because absent such gritty dialog, it will all come as a complete surprise to the BSMs and then real h%ll will be unleashed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elvislives View Post
The money you speak of is coming from the wealthy to benefit the middle class and the poor. Did you bother to read the plan??? Or is this what you were told to think?
Yep. That's how it's supposed to be made "all better"! My 22 yr old liberal-university-educated child recently said to me, and I quote: "But President Obama promised us a new plan! He'll take care of all this, unlike that idiot Bush!". Riggghhhttt....

In the past the rich or mega-corps could and did quietly bail it all out. Often, and in the background. Yes, quite probably for their own return-on-investment or for political influence, but still the problems got resolved. The way they're now castigated, I'd be surprised if they show such generosity. Nor should they! After all, they have their comfortable (tho' earned and paid for) homes in CA or FL. Or better, MT or AK.


Quote:
Originally Posted by linicx View Post
Yes, I do see your point and actually do agree to some extent, but I don't think you see mine. (No, I do, really, and appreciate your polite responses.) Society can have a Great Debate and even enter into social intercourse in polite society. My objection is not the content or the meat on the bone. We can not have a real debate if all we do is use labels to fan the flame of division and hate.
Yes, but unfortunately we aren't very polite and we love to pitch a fit for our side. We can ask for non-rancorous honest debate but what we've seen, sadly, is that when the so-called change artists get in, the Hubris Bug bites, and we get to see a complete repeat of their past excesses.

Just watch, for example, the predictable upcoming behavior of Ms. Pelosi, "Dr." Schummer, Ms's Boxer & Feinstein, Franks and a host of others. Will they adjust to the new realities? Work tirelessly for the common good? Unlikely. They just want to stay in power. End of game. And so we outsiders bicker. Fueled by the biases of Hannity, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Franken, et al.

Frankly, linicx, from my old goat's perspective as a past practicing ecologist, among other things, followed by a stint where I was a manager and engineer working with the dolt-heads @ GM, I'm not too encouraged by our distinctly un-altruistic social behavior. Perhaps we need to be stricken from the list. Move over for a newer better cockroach?

Otherwise, I hope to continue to be allowed to rant here for my own causes, which I like to think are in the better interests of us thinkers, including yourself. The others can go to heck! (just kidding!).

Thoughtfully yours....

Last edited by rifleman; 11-24-2008 at 11:04 PM.. Reason: typos
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Old 11-26-2008, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Limestone,TN/Bucerias, Mexico
1,452 posts, read 2,754,030 times
Reputation: 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by linicx View Post
Yes, I do see your point and actually do agree to some extent, but I don't think you see mine. Society can have a Great Debate and even enter into social intercourse in polite society. My objection is not the content or the meat on the bone. We can not have a real debate if all we do is use labels to fan the flame of division and hate.
You're not alone... For one, I totally agree with your statements on this issue. Thoughtful, articulate presentation of one's position and ideas (at least for me) is imminently more desirable than rancorous stabs or smears directed at those with opposing views. Although this GD forum, thankfully, is generally more polite and respectful than the election/immigration forum.

Is this a generational thing?

(would have repped you if I could)
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Old 11-27-2008, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Not where you ever lived
11,544 posts, read 25,174,786 times
Reputation: 6190
Default Thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Given the new or improved entitlements tantalyzingly promised by Mr. Obama, and that there will be an ever-larger dependant population made up of previously employed taxpayers, new retirees, our Middle-East war Disabled, or mega-corporate lay-off'ers, it has to all go away.

From my selfish perspective, having paid into all the "systems" for years, I feel fortunate that I'm now able to tap into some of the promised retirement safety net. Those of you under, ohhh say... 50, will probably not see any of these benefits absent a total abandonment of any immigration control. Or vast new increases in predatory, confiscatory re-distributionist taxation rates. That's been the solution in Kanada, Britain and elsewhere, where they've thrown open the gates to any and all immigrants, legal or otherwise, criminals or not, educated or not, to support their retirement, government health and social entitlement programs. Particularly, I note, government employee's retirement and healthcare programs. They come first, obviously!


I predict, floridasandy, quite conservatively, food riots, employment line riots, truck driver strikes, vast transportation disruptions, and on and on. Throw on top of that a well-timed and multiple-event terrorist strike of,, say, 5 or 10 dirty bombs at key cities, plus a bit of national power grid disruption in say, the middle of a particularly bad winter storm, and....?????

BTW, linicx, my sort of idle chit-chat would get me tossed into the slammer in China. So far though we can still talk about it here, and I feel you should be glad. Because absent such gritty dialog, it will all come as a complete surprise to the BSMs and then real h%ll will be unleashed.


Yep. That's how it's supposed to be made "all better"! My 22 yr old liberal-university-educated child recently said to me, and I quote: "But President Obama promised us a new plan! He'll take care of all this, unlike that idiot Bush!". Riggghhhttt....

In the past the rich or mega-corps could and did quietly bail it all out. Often, and in the background. Yes, quite probably for their own return-on-investment or for political influence, but still the problems got resolved. The way they're now castigated, I'd be surprised if they show such generosity. Nor should they! After all, they have their comfortable (tho' earned and paid for) homes in CA or FL. Or better, MT or AK.


Yes, but unfortunately we aren't very polite and we love to pitch a fit for our side. We can ask for non-rancorous honest debate but what we've seen, sadly, is that when the so-called change artists get in, the Hubris Bug bites, and we get to see a complete repeat of their past excesses.

Just watch, for example, the predictable upcoming behavior of Ms. Pelosi, "Dr." Schummer, Ms's Boxer & Feinstein, Franks and a host of others. Will they adjust to the new realities? Work tirelessly for the common good? Unlikely. They just want to stay in power. End of game. And so we outsiders bicker. Fueled by the biases of Hannity, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Franken, et al.

Frankly, linicx, from my old goat's perspective as a past practicing ecologist, among other things, followed by a stint where I was a manager and engineer working with the dolt-heads @ GM, I'm not too encouraged by our distinctly un-altruistic social behavior. Perhaps we need to be stricken from the list. Move over for a newer better cockroach?

Otherwise, I hope to continue to be allowed to rant here for my own causes, which I like to think are in the better interests of us thinkers, including yourself. The others can go to heck! (just kidding!).

Thoughtfully yours....
Rifleman, I too am an old goat but I want to thank you for proving my point. Peoele who agree to disagree do not have to be uncivil to each other to express a thought provoking point of view. I started a couple threads in this forum - one was on guns, another was on abortion. All sides were civil in the Great Debate. Civility amongst thinkers is one of the reasons I like this forum. And I like a heated debate too, but I maintain we need not be painting anyone with the broad brush of labels, colors or accusations.

Peace. bro!

Last edited by linicx; 11-27-2008 at 10:33 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 11-27-2008, 11:42 AM
 
Location: USA
13,819 posts, read 7,463,239 times
Reputation: 9990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastern Roamer View Post
There was that Eco-freak group out it California, I think, a few years ago. Didn't they vandalize SUVs at dealerships "in defense of mother Earth?"

That's a pretty radical, liberal group, eh? I can't think of any others, but I'm sure there are extremists in both directions of the spectrum.

And lets not forget Greenpeace, and the Sierra Club who reguarly violate the law in the name of the environment.

We can't forget Bill Ayers and the Weather Underground terrorist organization. As left wing as you can get.
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Old 11-27-2008, 12:09 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
3,088 posts, read 4,558,616 times
Reputation: 1598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot1 View Post
And lets not forget Greenpeace, and the Sierra Club who reguarly violate the law in the name of the environment.

We can't forget Bill Ayers and the Weather Underground terrorist organization. As left wing as you can get.
Yes, there are definatly a couple of left wing organizations that commit, sometimes quite significant property damage. . . but they do not, intentionally kill people. . . That, I think, is a significant difference!
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Old 11-27-2008, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Aiken S.C
765 posts, read 1,684,867 times
Reputation: 388
Quote:
Originally Posted by cap1717 View Post
Yes, there are definatly a couple of left wing organizations that commit, sometimes quite significant property damage. . . but they do not, intentionally kill people. . . That, I think, is a significant difference!
'Eco-terrorist' jailed for killing border guard
By Martin Bott in Zurich
A court in Zurich has found Swiss "eco-terrorist" Marco Camenisch, 52, guilty of murdering a border guard in his home village of Brusio in 1989. He was given a 17-year sentence, outraging radical ecological activists who view Camenisch as a heroic political prisoner.
'Eco-terrorist' jailed for killing border guard - Europe, World - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ecoterrorist-jailed-for-killing-border-guard-731129.html - broken link)

Before dawn on Aug. 28, 2003, two homemade pipe bombs went off at the headquarters of Chiron Corporation, a biotechnology firm based in Emeryville, Calif. The second blast was time-delayed; the FBI suspects that may have been a tactic to harm emergency teams responding to the blast.
"They were well built, very sophisticated devices. They were not made with garbage he actually went out and bought chemicals," said Strange. "You have to know what you're doing to build a bomb like this."
FOXNews.com - WANTED: Daniel Andreas San Diego for Eco-Terror Bombings - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News
Police have warned of the growing threat of eco-terrorism after revealing they are investigating a group which has supporters who believe that reducing the Earth's population by four-fifths will help to protect the planet. Police warn of growing threat from eco-terrorists // Current

Theodore "the Unabomber" Kaczynski is the radical environmental movement's biggest black eye. Conventional wisdom dictates that Kaczynski was merely an intellectual serial-killer, but his connection to Earth First! and the broader eco-terror movement is undeniable.
When FBI agents raided Kaczynski's Montana cabin in April 1996, they found copies of the Earth First! Journal, as well as an Earth First! affiliated publication called Live Wild or Die. This broadsheet,Earth First! funded by Mike Roselle, included a now-famous "Eco-F*cker Hit List."
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Old 11-27-2008, 08:46 PM
 
Location: Orlando, Florida
43,858 posts, read 43,654,334 times
Reputation: 58604
Quote:
Originally Posted by cap1717 View Post
had a story on right - wing hate groups, (KKK, skinheads, and a bunch of others that are not "household words") The comentator said that there are always a bunch of "death threats" against the winning candidate, after every election, but that the number of threats this year is, in his words, unprecidented.
Please discuss your views on (organized) hate groups. . . are these ALL right wing groups? Are any of them, that you know of, "liberal"?
Just some extra info:
The KKK are usually rural southerners. If they are registered at all to vote, and I doubt they vote at all, they would be registered as Democrats. They are not even remotely associated with the GOP due to Lincoln being a Republican.
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Old 11-27-2008, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Aiken S.C
765 posts, read 1,684,867 times
Reputation: 388
Quote:
Originally Posted by GloryB View Post
Just some extra info:
The KKK are usually rural southerners. If they are registered at all to vote, and I doubt they vote at all, they would be registered as Democrats. They are not even remotely associated with the GOP due to Lincoln being a Republican.
Wrong answer.
The Klan had major political influence in several states and was influential mostly in the center of the country. The Klan spread from the South into the Midwest and Northern states, and into Canada where there was a large movement against Catholic immigrants.[68] At its peak, Klan membership exceeded four million and comprised 20% of the adult white male population in many broad geographic regions, and 40% in some areas. Most of the Klan's membership resided in Midwestern states.
In another well-known example from the same year, the Klan decided to turn Anaheim, California, into a model Klan city. It secretly took over the City Council, but the city conducted a special recall election and Klan members were voted out.[
This all sounds pretty right wing to me.....
The Knights ' Party Platform
The recognition that America was founded as a Christian nation.
As James Madison, known as the "Chief Architect of the Constitution" stated; " We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves to control ourselves to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."
The recognition that America was founded as a White nation.
America was born as an extension of White European heritage. Those who formed the very ideals that we cherish such as freedom of speech, trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty, free enterprise, etc. were of White European heritage. All of the early laws of the United States from its very inception restricted citizenship to White people and all of the early charters, laws, compacts, etc were signed into effect by White people.
Repeal the NAFTA and GATT treaties.
These "laws" given to us by the Democrats and Republicans is damaging to the American worker and will eventually put millions upon millions into desperate poverty.
Put America FIRST in all foreign matters
The first and only concern of our government should be for the citizens of the United States.
Stop all Foreign Aid Immediately
Hundreds of billions of dollars are sent overseas every year while our people remain in need, our schools need funding, our infrastructure needs rebuilding and our citizens fight to keep their bills paid. This money should be used to support the decaying Social Security and Medicare programs, to help send kids to college, and to rebuild our infrastructure. Keep American Taxes in America!
The program (http://www.kkk.bz/program.htm - broken link)
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