U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-30-2008, 07:13 AM
 
Location: Exit 14C
1,555 posts, read 3,637,381 times
Reputation: 390

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by annerk View Post
Not sure what more you want. I like my doctor, I can get in easily with minimal notice, and yes, socializing medicine and requiring her to take any and all patients would change that.
Well, you kind of gave the basis later on in the post--an analogy to government assistance clinics you've been to.
Quote:
And who is paying for it?
Under the system I'd have if I were "king", there is no money, and competition for limited resources is based on how much people help other people out.

However, as I've already posted above, under our current economic system, making less radical changes that I'd make, we'd pay for it via tax dollars from (1) redistribution of the total pool of tax dollars the government has to play with, (2) taxes obtained from the legalization of various consensual activities, such as gambling, prostitution and drugs, and (3) money saved from cutting government-funded services that amounted to combatting currently illegal consensual activities.

There would be additional taxes in the sense that there are additional activities that are legal and being taxed, but the tax rates would be no more than they are currently.
Quote:
The few that work their butts off to reach an upper middle income.
You shouldn't have to work your butt off to have a home, food, clothing, health care, education, etc. no matter who you are. It's only our current system that necessitates that.
Quote:
Maybe you'd be happier in Russia.
I'd be happier being king and instituting MY system.
Quote:
If you just hand it to people they will rest on thier laurels, because they know they will get things without lifting a finger for them.
That's not the way my system works . . . although explaining how it would work would literally take at least a book. Trying to do the relevant points in a nutshell, though: there are obviously limited resources, and the only way to get them is by working, but as I mentioned, in my system, the competition, which enables you to get those limited resources, is based on helping out other folks, working to provide everyone with the things they need.

Working 1/4 of one's time is officially required, and opting out of that would result in only achieving the least desired resources, unless one is crafty enough to persuade or bargain for other things in other ways. So it's very similar to the motivations in our current system, except that there's no monetary system, everyone will have at least basic needs, and you get more of the stuff that you want (thereby helping yourself, indulging in your greed, etc.) by helping out society rather than just helping yourself.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-30-2008, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
7,091 posts, read 10,487,344 times
Reputation: 4104
I talk to people at conferences (we are close to Canada) about average wait times between the two, and they rant how the basic but heavy use services book out at least 12 weeks, longer for specialty services. So if you had say a hernia you're closest time frame is 3 months, I had mine corrected in 2 weeks...and it was delayed because of the PacifiCare/HealthOne contract dispute (it's painful as hell too). The hospitals longest time frame is 5 weeks for in demand specialists (COPD, autoimmune, asthma/allergy, chronic pain).

Just walking around Vancouver I hear people ranting about it, or it's pretty easy to start people doing it by mentioning "Damn Doctors" (like taxes or the rain).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-30-2008, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Idaho
873 posts, read 1,415,633 times
Reputation: 257
Waiting for health care is better then not receiving health care at all. But actually my friends in Canada (and there are many) have told me that there is no more a wait time then here. They said specialty care can take 3 months though. But where I live, it takes that long for specialty care and I'm in the states.

There is the argument that you don't know what you're going to get. Well, you don't here either. We have plenty of home grown quacks.

Then we can take the issue of going bankrupt in the states even if you do have good insurance. Interesting article was just posted here http://eaglerocktalks.com

Anything major can insure that even those making plenty of money find their worlds upside down, not to mention the middle and lower income ranges.

So as far as I'm concerned, we can bellyache all we want. At least with a national system, we'd ALL get care. Even Medicaid (wait times) and Medicare (out of pocket) and insured (deductibles) can suck for most.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-30-2008, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
7,091 posts, read 10,487,344 times
Reputation: 4104
Average doctors visits I can see being similar, but elective procedures can be a killer.

Wait times for surgery in Canada at all-time high: study
Median wait times for psychiatric treatment in Canada extend to 18.6 weeks in 2008
http://www.amsa.org/studytours/WaitingTimes_primer.pdf (broken link)

A year old, but relevant. Elective procedures required 18.3 weeks in 2007, rising from 13.1 weeks in 1999, and has been increasing steadily since the mid 80's.

"In 2006, the average amount of time spent waiting to receive treatment after referral by a general practitioner averaged 17.8 weeks across Canada. At 14.9 weeks, Ontario had the shortest waits. Prince Edward Island, Saskatchewan, and New Brunswick had average waits of 25.8 weeks, 28.5 weeks, and 31.9 weeks, respectively.

Patients referred to a neurosurgeon waited an average of 21 weeks just to see a specialist. Getting treatment required an additional 10.7 weeks."
Heartland Institute - Article (http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results.html?artId=20368 - broken link)


I'd rather not wait 31 weeks for neurosurgery myself, I'll stay in a private insurance area.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-30-2008, 01:05 PM
 
Location: Idaho
873 posts, read 1,415,633 times
Reputation: 257
Tell me something Subsound, if you or your loved ones were NOT insured. Would it be acceptable?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-30-2008, 02:17 PM
 
26,589 posts, read 52,947,716 times
Reputation: 12963
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastidahomom View Post
Tell me something Subsound, if you or your loved ones were NOT insured. Would it be acceptable?
I simply don't buy that most people who don't have insurance can't be insured. The company I work for offers a basic major medical plan for about $10 a week to all employees. Abotu 30% of them don't bother to take it, because it's "too expensive." yet they drive tricked out cars and trucks with $2000 in rims, smoke cigarettes, eat lunch out every day, and party all weekend. Totally screwed up priorities, and yet it's my hard working butt that would be paying more in taxes to cover them? No thanks.

"Can't afford" health insurance is a fallacy. "Don't want to rearrange the budget, give up the expensive car, and horrors, maybe even work a second job or spend free time getting an education so I can get a better job" get it is more often the case.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-30-2008, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Idaho
873 posts, read 1,415,633 times
Reputation: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by annerk View Post
I simply don't buy that most people who don't have insurance can't be insured. The company I work for offers a basic major medical plan for about $10 a week to all employees. Abotu 30% of them don't bother to take it, because it's "too expensive." yet they drive tricked out cars and trucks with $2000 in rims, smoke cigarettes, eat lunch out every day, and party all weekend. Totally screwed up priorities, and yet it's my hard working butt that would be paying more in taxes to cover them? No thanks.

"Can't afford" health insurance is a fallacy. "Don't want to rearrange the budget, give up the expensive car, and horrors, maybe even work a second job or spend free time getting an education so I can get a better job" get it is more often the case.
Well nobody asked you to "buy" it. But it's a fact. A lot of people cannot afford it. The insurance that many DO receive have outrageous deductibles that they can't afford. Do your homework prior to posting such ignorant blurbs. An awful lot of people in this country are without health insurance and it's not because they'd rather spend it on smoking or partying. Just because that's what you see, doesn't make it the norm.

As an employee in the medical field, I can assure you that you're wrong.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-30-2008, 02:46 PM
 
26,589 posts, read 52,947,716 times
Reputation: 12963
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastidahomom View Post
Well nobody asked you to "buy" it. But it's a fact. A lot of people cannot afford it. The insurance that many DO receive have outrageous deductibles that they can't afford. Do your homework prior to posting such ignorant blurbs. An awful lot of people in this country are without health insurance and it's not because they'd rather spend it on smoking or partying. Just because that's what you see, doesn't make it the norm.

As an employee in the medical field, I can assure you that you're wrong.
Like I said, if they can't afford it perhaps they should have found another job. This is NOT a socialist or communist state. People have ALWAYS had opportunities if they were willing to think outside the box and work hard to improve their lives. I took a HUGE risk 20 years ago and moved away from family and friends in a steel belt town with a depressed economy I worked two jobs and saved everything I made from job two. Then I sold what I couldn't take in the car, and started from scratch in a new area which appeared to have better opportunities. It was hard to be away from the life I'd always known, but it paid off. Within three years I was making more than I could have at the peak of my career had I stayed where I was. I never looked back. My HARD WORK is what got me to the place I am now, nobody EVER gave me ANYTHING. I paid for my own education, I scraped my way up.

I am disgusted and appalled by the apathy in this country, by the people who refuse to pull up thier bootstraps and do anything it takes to better their life, and instead stand there with their hand out looking for it all to be done for them. It's just pitiful.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-30-2008, 02:56 PM
 
Location: Idaho
873 posts, read 1,415,633 times
Reputation: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by annerk View Post
Like I said, if they can't afford it perhaps they should have found another job. This is NOT a socialist or communist state. People have ALWAYS had opportunities if they were willing to think outside the box and work hard to improve their lives. I took a HUGE risk 20 years ago and moved away from family and friends in a steel belt town with a depressed economy I worked two jobs and saved everything I made from job two. Then I sold what I couldn't take in the car, and started from scratch in a new area which appeared to have better opportunities. It was hard to be away from the life I'd always known, but it paid off. Within three years I was making more than I could have at the peak of my career had I stayed where I was. I never looked back. My HARD WORK is what got me to the place I am now, nobody EVER gave me ANYTHING. I paid for my own education, I scraped my way up.

I am disgusted and appalled by the apathy in this country, by the people who refuse to pull up thier bootstraps and do anything it takes to better their life, and instead stand there with their hand out looking for it all to be done for them. It's just pitiful.
I'll do my best to remain polite here. Yes, as one of those single mothers working 2 and 3 jobs while my children were young, I know exactly what you mean. But still, while I had insurance, my children did not. We barely put food on table much less could afford additional insurance.

Jump off your high horse. Because YOU could do it, does not make everyone so fortunate. As one of those who worked my way up, or SCRAPED my way up, as you say, I have been there and done that. You're preaching to the choir. But I am not so dense nor self-righteous as to think that everyone has the means with which to do that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-30-2008, 03:11 PM
 
Location: Exit 14C
1,555 posts, read 3,637,381 times
Reputation: 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by annerk View Post
My HARD WORK is what got me to the place I am now, nobody EVER gave me ANYTHING. I paid for my own education, I scraped my way up.
What's unfortunate is that we do not have a system where you'd get to where you are now by hard work that ensures that everyone has shelter, food, clothing, health care, education, etc. The current system isn't designed to reward you for helping others, but that's what we need.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top