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Old 11-30-2008, 04:21 PM
 
26,589 posts, read 53,179,106 times
Reputation: 12971

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tungsten_Udder View Post
What's unfortunate is that we do not have a system where you'd get to where you are now by hard work that ensures that everyone has shelter, food, clothing, health care, education, etc. The current system isn't designed to reward you for helping others, but that's what we need.
I donate 10% of my income to charity--not a faith based tithe, but charitable contributions to various organizations that I choose to support. Perhaps instead of being FORCED to donate to people who often would help themselves if we stopped giving them handouts, if taxes were reduced to a reasonable level many would contribute more to help those truly in need.

I also donate my time to two organizations.
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:24 PM
 
26,589 posts, read 53,179,106 times
Reputation: 12971
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastidahomom View Post
I'll do my best to remain polite here. Yes, as one of those single mothers working 2 and 3 jobs while my children were young, I know exactly what you mean. But still, while I had insurance, my children did not. We barely put food on table much less could afford additional insurance.

Jump off your high horse. Because YOU could do it, does not make everyone so fortunate. As one of those who worked my way up, or SCRAPED my way up, as you say, I have been there and done that. You're preaching to the choir. But I am not so dense nor self-righteous as to think that everyone has the means with which to do that.
Of course not everyone does--and for those truly in need there are available avenues to get help. But you can't honestly tell me that there isn't a single person who could have gotten insurance and chose not to who is now looking for indigent care that you've ever run into. My neighbors have $120,000 in cars in their driveway, plus a boat and other toys, but won't buy insurance for the wife who has a pre-existing condition because it would cost $1500 a month. Boo freaking hoo.
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:25 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
7,091 posts, read 10,529,446 times
Reputation: 4106
No one who needs care is turned away. I know of no system where they are so. Charity Care and government subsidies take care of people who come in for emergency or absolutely necessary care. That doesn't mean everybody gets doses of new cancer meds at hundreds (sometimes thousands) of dollars each.

Socialized countries don't even have access to those, everything I have found is most are 3 years behind the US in top of the line meds and treatments, because they are way too expensive. They cost that much because R&D takes so long and so much, every drug is a gamble if it fails...it can break a multi billon dollar company.

Would you find it acceptable if the treatment was available, but because of socialized health care wouldn't pay the high premium for it you couldn't have it?

Would you find it acceptable if your or your loved one dies waiting for surgery? Such as 6 months to have a brain tumor removed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eastidahomom View Post
As an employee in the medical field, I can assure you that you're wrong.
I have spent 8 years in the medical field (4 in IT, 4 in finance), I see every day how much everything costs and how much everything gets paid. It's not a fallacy to say people can't afford medical care, it's one of the main reason for bankruptcies. People will get care, but they won't get the top of the line treatments...some one some where must pay for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eastidahomom View Post
Tell me something Subsound, if you or your loved ones were NOT insured. Would it be acceptable?
I don't, I want to find something in between private health care and Medicare/Medicaid to help more people in need. It doesn't mean I want to dismantle the system, Americans get the best medical care in the world and that costs money.

Last edited by subsound; 11-30-2008 at 04:35 PM.. Reason: Addition
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:32 PM
 
Location: Exit 14C
1,555 posts, read 3,650,222 times
Reputation: 395
Quote:
Originally Posted by annerk View Post
I donate 10% of my income to charity--not a faith based tithe, but charitable contributions to various organizations that I choose to support. Perhaps instead of being FORCED to donate to people who often would help themselves if we stopped giving them handouts, if taxes were reduced to a reasonable level many would contribute more to help those truly in need.

I also donate my time to two organizations.
The problem with that however is that it doesn't significantly reward you for helping others. If your ability to get the stuff you really want hinged on that, however, then everyone would benefit.
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:35 PM
 
Location: Idaho
873 posts, read 1,419,575 times
Reputation: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by annerk View Post
Of course not everyone does--and for those truly in need there are available avenues to get help. But you can't honestly tell me that there isn't a single person who could have gotten insurance and chose not to who is now looking for indigent care that you've ever run into. My neighbors have $120,000 in cars in their driveway, plus a boat and other toys, but won't buy insurance for the wife who has a pre-existing condition because it would cost $1500 a month. Boo freaking hoo.
I am not sure if you sound bitter or spoiled. Since you insist you worked so hard, I'll assume it's bitter. I don't know your neighbors, but I'll just bet your story isn't entirely accurate. Even if it is, to judge an entire country by the few people you know, if horribly lacking in any knowledge.

Annerk, if you're just trolling, this isn't the place. If you have some real information, kindly post it.

As I stated, I work in the medical field. I am not oblivious to what goes on out there. And as I stated, I was a young mother with children and no support whatsoever with the exception of the several jobs that I worked. Believe me, I would far prefer to have been home with my children who needed me.

I see young women and children every single day who lack health insurance. Their incomes are a joke. Many of those with insurance have deductibles that are so outrageous they can't pay them. They are denied tests and surgeries because of this...much needed tests and surgeries. I have seen grown men cry because they are so sick but can't afford a doctor or their children are literally dying and they can't help them. And neither can we. THAT is pitiful.

In the future if you want to boohoo somebody, try shedding a few real tears for those people who have absolutely no means whatsoever except to sit back and watch their loved ones die. In the meantime, take you boohooing to your own pillow. We'll see how your's and your children's and grandchildren's lives pan out with that attitude.
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:37 PM
 
26,589 posts, read 53,179,106 times
Reputation: 12971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tungsten_Udder View Post
The problem with that however is that it doesn't significantly reward you for helping others. If your ability to get the stuff you really want hinged on that, however, then everyone would benefit.
If I were forced to give half of what I made to others who chose to not work as hard as I do, I'd work less hard. My husband and I are already considering me giving up my f/t job and just concentrating on the freelance work with it's fabulous tax breaks so we can drop to a lower tax bracket if taxes continue to rise. It gets to a point where it's just not worth making the extra effort when you can live a slightly adjusted lifestyle because you are paying that much less in taxes.
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:42 PM
 
Location: Idaho
873 posts, read 1,419,575 times
Reputation: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by subsound View Post
No one who needs care is turned away. I know of no system where they are so. Charity Care and government subsidies take care of people who come in for emergency or absolutely necessary care. That doesn't mean everybody gets doses of new cancer meds at hundreds (sometimes thousands) of dollars each.
You are talking about emergency care. Most hospitals are allowed to stabilize you, not continue once you are stabilized. You're sent home. I've seen it over and over again. One 6-year old boy was sent home to die. Broke my heart! Imagine what it did to his family?



Quote:
Would you find it acceptable if the treatment was available, but because of socialized health care wouldn't pay the high premium for it you couldn't have it?

Would you find it acceptable if your or your loved one dies waiting for surgery? Such as 6 months to have a brain tumor removed?
If it meant insuring them the care they need, yes. But, as anyone can tell you, emergency situations, critical care situations, in socialized countries are available right away. You're hearing a lot of hogwash, get your facts straight.



Quote:
I have spent 8 years in the medical field (4 in IT, 4 in finance), I see every day how much everything costs and how much everything gets paid. It's not a fallacy to say people can't afford medical care, it's one of the main reason for bankruptcies. People will get care, but they won't get the top of the line treatments...some one some where must pay for it.
It would be about time that someone, somewhere, paid for it.
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:49 PM
 
26,589 posts, read 53,179,106 times
Reputation: 12971
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastidahomom View Post
I am not sure if you sound bitter or spoiled. Since you insist you worked so hard, I'll assume it's bitter. I don't know your neighbors, but I'll just bet your story isn't entirely accurate. Even if it is, to judge an entire country by the few people you know, if horribly lacking in any knowledge.

Annerk, if you're just trolling, this isn't the place. If you have some real information, kindly post it.

As I stated, I work in the medical field. I am not oblivious to what goes on out there. And as I stated, I was a young mother with children and no support whatsoever with the exception of the several jobs that I worked. Believe me, I would far prefer to have been home with my children who needed me.

I see young women and children every single day who lack health insurance. Their incomes are a joke. Many of those with insurance have deductibles that are so outrageous they can't pay them. They are denied tests and surgeries because of this...much needed tests and surgeries. I have seen grown men cry because they are so sick but can't afford a doctor or their children are literally dying and they can't help them. And neither can we. THAT is pitiful.

In the future if you want to boohoo somebody, try shedding a few real tears for those people who have absolutely no means whatsoever except to sit back and watch their loved ones die. In the meantime, take you boohooing to your own pillow. We'll see how your's and your children's and grandchildren's lives pan out with that attitude.
I know a guy who is self-employed, he works about two days a week and has a lot of free time. Instead of taking a low-wage but good benefit job he was offered by a friend who owns a business, he just figured he was healthy, he didn't need to put forth the extra effort. Then he broke his hand and needed surgery. No one would operate on it because he was uninsured, and he did nothing but badmouth doctors for the next three months until his parents took out a loan for him to get the surgery. And I should have sympathy because?

You see one side of the fence, I see the other. I see over 20% of the employees in the company I work for refusing to spend $10 a week because "they are healthy" and don't think they need it. I could keep going, but in my experience a huge percentage of uninsured people DO ahve access to insurance and choose to not take it.
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:52 PM
 
Location: Idaho
873 posts, read 1,419,575 times
Reputation: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by annerk View Post
I know a guy who is self-employed, he works about two days a week and has a lot of free time. Instead of taking a low-wage but good benefit job he was offered by a friend who owns a business, he just figured he was healthy, he didn't need to put forth the extra effort. Then he broke his hand and needed surgery. No one would operate on it because he was uninsured, and he did nothing but badmouth doctors for the next three months until his parents took out a loan for him to get the surgery. And I should have sympathy because?

You see one side of the fence, I see the other. I see over 20% of the employees in the company I work for refusing to spend $10 a week because "they are healthy" and don't think they need it. I could keep going, but in my experience a huge percentage of uninsured people DO ahve access to insurance and choose to not take it.
Well my sympathies to your experience. But still, AND AGAIN, you have to keep in mind that you are seeing a very select few.
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Old 11-30-2008, 05:03 PM
 
Location: Exit 14C
1,555 posts, read 3,650,222 times
Reputation: 395
Quote:
Originally Posted by annerk View Post
If I were forced to give half of what I made to others who chose to not work as hard as I do, I'd work less hard.
That's not at all what I'm talking about though (see the earlier posts I made about this). I'm not talking about you being forced to give away things that you earn. I'm talking about your "earning" (or, being able to get the stuff you want to get, especially when those things are limited resources) coming from helping others. The less hard you work (helping others) the more difficult that it will be for you to get those things.
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