U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Happy Easter!
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-03-2008, 06:14 AM
 
Location: Minnysoda
8,016 posts, read 8,085,003 times
Reputation: 4730

Advertisements

my point is the founders considered and relied in faith, thier faith in God. It was so important that they did consider it when they were crafting the constitution. NOT the lack of faith, or no beiief at all. They did use the bible as a guide line for many laws . The freedoms that many people use in this country to besmirch those that follow a religion was provided by men who did believe in God
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-03-2008, 07:32 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
7,091 posts, read 10,490,270 times
Reputation: 4104
I think it's a great testament to the open mindedness and fairness of the founding fathers to include all faiths protection in the constitution, including ones they did not agree with, practice, or endorse.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-03-2008, 08:11 AM
 
Location: Aiken S.C
765 posts, read 1,681,247 times
Reputation: 388
Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
my point is the founders considered and relied in faith, thier faith in God. It was so important that they did consider it when they were crafting the constitution. NOT the lack of faith, or no beiief at all. They did use the bible as a guide line for many laws . The freedoms that many people use in this country to besmirch those that follow a religion was provided by men who did believe in God
Show me anywhere in the constitution or bill of rights where the words christianity , jesus . or bible appear.. you cannot...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-03-2008, 08:30 AM
 
48,519 posts, read 81,048,183 times
Reputation: 17978
Al you have to do is look at the law of any western nation and read the base laws and you will see the biblke eachings.Its like thinking that the foiunders being christain would forget its influence in their lifes.Kind of liike recognising jazz ;rock and classical music;you don't need to be told at the start what type it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-03-2008, 09:04 AM
 
878 posts, read 1,846,679 times
Reputation: 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by elvislives View Post
The first amendment creates a wall of seperation between church and state .... Thomas Jefferson letter to Danbury church 1802 .... This guy CRAFTED America not just run it .
Actually the quote you're referring to is an assurance by Jefferson that the State will not interfere with the Church.

Jefferson would be completely against the idea of taxing churches, as it would breach that "wall of separation."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-03-2008, 09:17 AM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,940,037 times
Reputation: 3848
Quote:
Originally Posted by zman0 View Post
Actually the quote you're referring to is an assurance by Jefferson that the State will not interfere with the Church.

Jefferson would be completely against the idea of taxing churches, as it would breach that "wall of separation."
Actually exempting churches from taxes breaches the wall of separation -- because it makes the taxpayers subsidize the churches.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-03-2008, 09:30 AM
 
Location: Aiken S.C
765 posts, read 1,681,247 times
Reputation: 388
Quote:
Originally Posted by zman0 View Post
Actually the quote you're referring to is an assurance by Jefferson that the State will not interfere with the Church.

Jefferson would be completely against the idea of taxing churches, as it would breach that "wall of separation."
That is nowhere close to what the letter says . when you actually go and read it also look at Thomas Jeffersons 1786 Virgina statute for religious freedom.. Jefferson absolutely believed that religion and politics do not mix well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-03-2008, 09:35 AM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,940,037 times
Reputation: 3848
Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
my point is the founders considered and relied in faith, thier faith in God. It was so important that they did consider it when they were crafting the constitution. NOT the lack of faith, or no beiief at all. They did use the bible as a guide line for many laws . The freedoms that many people use in this country to besmirch those that follow a religion was provided by men who did believe in God
Actually, no. The Founders relied on the writings of ancient authors who were pagan, and on the experience of Classical civilizations, which were mostly pagan as well. The Founders were great admirers of Sparta, which was pagan (and very gay). They also borrowed heavily from the political principles and structures of Athens (pagan) and the Roman Republic (pagan). So evidently, the Founders did think that non-Christians could govern themselves very well despite being non-Christian.

Incidentally, some reliable quotes from Thomas Jefferson, which mention the source:

"They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion." -to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes." - to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

"The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills." - letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." - letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own." - letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

"As you say of yourself, I too am an Epicurian. I consider the genuine (not the imputed) doctrines of Epicurus as containing everything rational in moral philosophy which Greece and Rome have left us." - letter to William Short, Oct. 31, 1819

"Priests...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live." - letter to Correa de Serra, April 11, 1820

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity." - Notes on Virginia, 1782

"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." - Notes on Virginia, 1782 (Note the part about picking Jefferson's pocket. Do you really think he would accept the idea of subsidizing religion through taxes?)

"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination." - Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

This was just a brief sampling.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-03-2008, 09:37 AM
 
Location: Southeast
4,296 posts, read 6,116,687 times
Reputation: 1444
Quote:
Originally Posted by elvislives View Post
Tax-Free Land: Exemptions from property taxes represent an even larger benefit to churches there may be as much as $100 billion dollars in untaxed church property in the United States. This creates a problem, according to some, because the tax exemption amounts to a gift of money to the churches at the expense of tax payers. For every dollar which the government cannot collect on church property, it must make up for by collecting it from citizens; thus all citizens are forced to indirectly support churches, even those they do not belong to and may even oppose. Isn't this a direct violation of the constitution?
I would say that taxing churches is a bad thing for two reasons;

First, that is government regulation/control of religion. That makes any tax on churches unconstitutional.

Second, churches provide for the needy though soup kitchens, shelters, etc. If you tax them, that is less money for the poor, and more money for the government to waste. I much prefer care for the needy to come from the private sector, as opposed to forced government handouts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-03-2008, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,066,557 times
Reputation: 3717
Default Right-on quotes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilith1968 View Post
I don't think people who don't believe in a God are all immoral. A lot of the times it's the ones who believe in a God that scare me the most.
Appreciated. Thanks for your support!

Quote:
Originally Posted by subsound View Post
I think it's a great testament to the open mindedness and fairness of the founding fathers to include all faiths' protection in the Constitution, including ones they did not agree with, practice, or endorse.
Agreed. I say: A sensible man realizes that you cannot mix specific dogmas with the necessary everyday legislation of a democratic republic that is, supposedly, based on freedom. It curdles!

The truly scary part to all non-Christians is evident in a lot of the posts above: that if fundy Christians had their way, as in a theocratic dictatorship, we'd all HAVE TO BE indoctrinated into their belief system.

Jefferson, and others, as is CLEARLY APPARENT in the quotes above by Redisca (Thanks, BTW! Great stuff. Goes on the fridge today!), fully understood this fact, especially since he'd witnessed and read of the long history of torturous suppression by organized religion in Europe.

Also the link above to the fiscal malfeasance of the various Christian broadcasters is a real eye opener. Mix blind faith with an emotional (Swaggert in tears...) appeal for a little financial help, and....

These leaches should be fully exposed by the national lefty media and run outa town "on a rail". Do the Christians on this forum support these criminals?

PS: do the Christians on this forum actually wish or long for the European model of massive theocratic intervention in the everyday lives of the masses? Would that be "seventh heaven" for you folks? How many of you voted for Pat Robertson for prez a few years ago? Just curious.

Peace and love, man!

Last edited by rifleman; 12-03-2008 at 10:02 AM.. Reason: typos
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top