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Old 12-07-2008, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
7,091 posts, read 10,502,704 times
Reputation: 4104

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I'm all for rehabilitating people using drugs to productive members of society when they want to quit...but people using don't need hand outs. It's nice and fluffy to give people safe environments to shoot up and get hand outs, but when people continue using the drug supply chain still kills people...you just can't see them.

From the drug lords killing each other in the growing regions, and killing witnesses and law enforcement officers...then the mules and shippers dying to run the drugs....then to police in the US and people dealing (killing each other or police shooting them). How many people are killed for each pound of drugs, any, that are run up to the US? Who knows, but it's pretty easy to find stories of people killed in drug violence...let alone more theft crimes and uses of medical treatment money from users.

I don't want to give any help to users, period. What I see around Portland really hardens my heart to these people, when they go to a soup kitchen to be fed and survive...then come back later that night to steal all the metal to sell for more drugs (and then it goes out of business, stopping support for everyone). When a user hits rock bottom, they will have two choices...get clean or continue to death. Either way decreases demand. It's mean, but people have to be responsible for their own choices, at no point did I accept responsibility for grown people to screw themselves up because I made the right choices in life.
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Old 12-07-2008, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Pensacola, Fl
656 posts, read 953,026 times
Reputation: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Danielle* View Post
This is what we are debating. If we think this is the answer to our drug problem here.... I have no 'gripe'. We are debating. Just because people disagree does not make it a 'gripe'. Open your mind a little bit.
My mind is as free and open as can be!


Quote:
I am very aware of the typical life of a hard core junkie.


What does HIV have anything to do with this conversation?
I was stating that each year or so, they have to make new drugs to combat the stronger virus. They don't stagnate their drugs while the virus still gets stronger. The method that they use can be equated to junkies plateauing and going for something stronger.


Quote:
Oh, the government will supply different strengths of heroin to the junkies. Wow, the Swiss don't even do that... YOu must have a plan. Please tell us!
Not a plan, just a proposal. I'll need just a few more years of schooling before I reach the 'plan' part.

Quote:
I feel like you're spewing a bunch of gibberish. Your not stating any new points that all of us have already made. I know about the junkies lifestyle. I know EXACTLY what it takes to get off of heroin. Now, your implying that heroin treatment should be treated like a terminal virus instead of a curable addiction?
And aren't you doing the exact same miss? You keep going over the same points yet you don't even have a proposal to get the addicts clean. You can excuse me for at least TRYING to come up with a proposal instead of saying the same thing over without so much as a proposal. So so sorry.


Quote:
And no, I don't think an addict can make the clear decision to go get help on his own. Sure, I think they know the danger of the drug. But I think they are so foggy from it, they don't care.
What about the addicts that right now can make a cognizant enough decision to go get clean? Do they just not count?

Quote:
A level of cut for each one...and who will call that shot? Hmmm, lets see,,,you're emaciated, you have infected scratches all over your body, your pupils are tiny. You have slurred speech, your completely incoherent and your almost unconscious,,,you get the *really* good stuff. Have you lost your mind? How is that 'weaning' anyone from heroin?
Will there be a full medical staff there to save this junkies life when he collapses? So you really want medically trained people to hand off some dope to a junkie and then turn around and wait for him to collapse...to start thumping on his chest? That sounds like a very intellectual approach to successful medical interventions or "weaning" of heroin junkies.
Hmm. You got me there. Good point. But I have not lost my mind, I am indeed sane.

Quote:
WE are in Afghanastan already...probably with more troops to go next year. Why not burn some poppy fields down? Or take down the growers or the Afghan drug lords...why not?
Do you know anything of the military? It's not as simple as telling them to go burn some poppy seeds and everything will be handy dandy. They have to be given orders, and back up orders, and another set of back up orders. I don't think the ones who grow the poppy seeds would have them ungaurded and waiting to just be burned. The kind of pushers we are dealing with aren't stupid and they are prepared for the worst. The seeds are the way they make their livelihood and fund terrorist.

Quote:
And...no I never called anyone 'dimwitted'. You coined that phrase yourself.
If I recall correctly I believe I was asking if you thought people were dimwitted and ignorant to not think of counteractives to lawsuits. I was not calling anyone dimiwitted or ignorant, simply asking you if you thought so. If you can find in my post where I said that, I would appreciate if you could point it out to me.

Don't worry, I'll wait.
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Old 12-07-2008, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
2,868 posts, read 8,456,855 times
Reputation: 1500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kb09 View Post
My mind is as free and open as can be!




I was stating that each year or so, they have to make new drugs to combat the stronger virus. They don't stagnate their drugs while the virus still gets stronger. The method that they use can be equated to junkies plateauing and going for something stronger.




Not a plan, just a proposal. I'll need just a few more years of schooling before I reach the 'plan' part.



And aren't you doing the exact same miss? You keep going over the same points yet you don't even have a proposal to get the addicts clean. You can excuse me for at least TRYING to come up with a proposal instead of saying the same thing over without so much as a proposal. So so sorry.




What about the addicts that right now can make a cognizant enough decision to go get clean? Do they just not count?



Hmm. You got me there. Good point. But I have not lost my mind, I am indeed sane.



Do you know anything of the military? It's not as simple as telling them to go burn some poppy seeds and everything will be handy dandy. They have to be given orders, and back up orders, and another set of back up orders. I don't think the ones who grow the poppy seeds would have them ungaurded and waiting to just be burned. The kind of pushers we are dealing with aren't stupid and they are prepared for the worst. The seeds are the way they make their livelihood and fund terrorist.



If I recall correctly I believe I was asking if you thought people were dimwitted and ignorant to not think of counteractives to lawsuits. I was not calling anyone dimiwitted or ignorant, simply asking you if you thought so. If you can find in my post where I said that, I would appreciate if you could point it out to me.

Don't worry, I'll wait.
OH...I will be quick because I hate to make people wait. I think I will just stick to the topic at hand. I don't want to discuss military or HIV or whatever other distraction you decide to toss out there that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. So when your ready to debate this topic and post something that is not gibberish...I will respond to that...

I will respond to your "proposal" of getting junkies clean... I guess it takes a little logic but you can't get a junkie clean by pushing more heroin onto him....Just a thought...
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Old 12-08-2008, 07:01 PM
 
Location: Pensacola, Fl
656 posts, read 953,026 times
Reputation: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Danielle* View Post
OH...I will be quick because I hate to make people wait. I think I will just stick to the topic at hand. I don't want to discuss military or HIV or whatever other distraction you decide to toss out there that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. So when your ready to debate this topic and post something that is not gibberish...I will respond to that...

I will respond to your "proposal" of getting junkies clean... I guess it takes a little logic but you can't get a junkie clean by pushing more heroin onto him....Just a thought...
So I can't use examples and such to debate this topic? Using examples to illustrate your points are all part of debate sweetie. I'm ready to debate the topic anytime you are.

I'm ready to hear your thoughts anytime buddy, anytime.

Don't worry, I'll wait.
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Old 12-09-2008, 06:27 PM
 
48,519 posts, read 81,193,311 times
Reputation: 17979
Lets someone you known get on heroin and see if your for giving it to them.Governamnt doesn't need to become the dealers of this plague that destroys and kills so many.
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Old 12-09-2008, 07:46 PM
 
16,753 posts, read 18,962,878 times
Reputation: 6840
That's funny... give heroin to drug abusers so they will quit? Yeah, that will happen in the next NEVER... That's like giving a fat kid an unlimited supply of junk food and hope that will make him go on a diet... lol... that is if the kid doesn't have a heart attack at the age of 20 and then SUE the government for "making" him fat and getting heart attack...
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Old 12-09-2008, 08:02 PM
 
Location: WV
617 posts, read 1,869,143 times
Reputation: 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by texdav View Post
Lets someone you known get on heroin and see if your for giving it to them.Governamnt doesn't need to become the dealers of this plague that destroys and kills so many.
What makes you think that those of us who oppose our current failed "war on drugs" have not been affected by drug abuse?
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Old 12-09-2008, 09:54 PM
 
613 posts, read 1,155,240 times
Reputation: 187
Addiction isn't a choice nor a disease but a symptom. To treat it is futile. You can rid a person of all physical dependence of a substance, but that's only half the reason they would be presently using and none of the reason they started. So the addict would be thrusted into reality with an extremely week abilty to deal with things as their mind hasn't had to in quite sometime along with being chemically assaulted for quite sometime, but will be faced with the problems they had all at once with the new problems caused by the consequences of their actions. So no matter how hard they try not to do the drug they will grow weary and fall back on the only thing they know will work, getting high. The only way to cure the symptom is to cure the desease. It is a terribly ugly symptom yes, but treating it alone does no good. Rehibilitation centers are waisting money and time and hope. Making substances illegal is a silly thought to begin with but honestly does nothing but help bad people. We as a society need to become more responsible for our own problems and not rely on government to take care of everything. It be a lot easier though if we cut part of the funding for the enemy. Legalize it and all drugs, inspire hope into the youth, and become effecient in providing mental stability for the ill, and it will dissapear.
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Old 12-09-2008, 10:21 PM
 
613 posts, read 1,155,240 times
Reputation: 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by texdav View Post
Lets someone you known get on heroin and see if your for giving it to them.Governamnt doesn't need to become the dealers of this plague that destroys and kills so many.
I've known a couple. I've known a couple dealers....... They are on the same side of this issue as you, but they are profiting while society crumbles. They! are the plague. You are supporting them and helping nothing. Why shouldn't the trade be regulated and benificial to society? Atleast until we have the ability to stop it.
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Old 12-10-2008, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Exit 14C
1,555 posts, read 3,643,360 times
Reputation: 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by elvislives View Post
0 under Mao Tsetung . . .
I'm sure that figure was arrived at by an epistemic method I would agree with.

How much did they say they wanted for the Brooklyn Bridge again?
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