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Old 12-07-2008, 06:28 PM
 
48,519 posts, read 81,076,846 times
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I pers9onhally saw that not many wanted to bailouyt wall street afterall it failed ohn the first vote. Its is the democratic leadership that decided what gets on the calandar for a vote that allowed it the first time and then brought it backup a seconf time. They sweeten the deal enough by bribing senators with Pork to get enouigh votesd to pass it. I was against it then and am aginst this bailout.In the end I think if they bailout the big htree it is just postponiong things. Afterall their record after the 70's embargo is clear;they can show no real plan to make a profit. Chapter 11 is the best thing and what it is in place for.
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Old 12-08-2008, 08:16 AM
 
Location: Louisiana
1,740 posts, read 2,932,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texdav View Post
It looks to me like they will do the same thingto the american people in the end as they have done to their business. Others will take the big threees 52% of car slaes and creat more jobs that are more secure in the end. Its not like peole are going to stop buying 52% less cars because the big three go out of business.
Here's one member of those 52% who will never buy a foreign car (again) — even if it is built on American soil (the profits still go abroad). It's fantasy to believe that Japanese cars are better built, and it's fantasy to believe that the present administration would ever do what's best (which would be to bust the unions). Obviously, then, the government should do the truly socialist thing and make all these foreign car manufacturers join the UAW.

Last edited by Rosinante; 12-08-2008 at 08:36 AM.. Reason: clarification
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Old 12-08-2008, 08:33 AM
 
Location: Louisiana
1,740 posts, read 2,932,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLAZER PROPHET View Post
2) I agree and disagree. According to Consumerís Reports & JD Power (the two most reliable sources for auto reliability), Ford is now very close to Toyota & Honda with respect to overall quality & reliability. GM is quite a ways behind and Chrysler is at the very bottom. Those are documented facts based on a huge sampling. As for me, there is no reason to think the auto makers canít seriously upgrade reliability.
Well, it's not often that I would disagree with you, B.P., but the American people, in general, have been hoodwinked into believing that these two propaganda merchants spread the gospel when in, in fact, they're just as specious as any other mouthpiece. To wit: my wife's 2005 Chrysler 300 hasn't required anything but a new set of tires after 88,000 miles, while my 2006 Dodge Magnum has behaved just as well after 62,000 miles (although I did have to replace a tire after only 3500 miles because it got a nail in it ó the tire, BTW, was a German Continental).

In fact, I know several Chrysler owners, most of whom drive more miles than average drivers, and none of them has any complaints. Meanwhile, my peer-group-influenced acquaintances have had their BMWs and Lexuses back to the shop for silly little things that should have be caught before they left their factories. So much for foreign cars: they're just a joke.
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Old 12-08-2008, 08:47 AM
 
Location: Louisiana
1,740 posts, read 2,932,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMadison View Post
Does it strike anyone else as FUBAR that Washington is 100% willing to bail out the largely white collar Wall Street "industry" but not the predominantly blue collar employing auto industry?

As for unions, well, how else are little people going to fight for their piece of the pie. Are unions corrupt? Quite likely, but what other options do little people have exactly?

Without some balance against the top layers, wouldn't they just drive wages down to subsistence levels, like they are everywhere else in the world?

So despite their defects, don't unions simply represent labors only available method of balancing power?

Funny how most folks might say they value life more than money... until it comes paycheck time. Cheap labor seems to be the true underpinning of capitalism. And unrepresented at will employment most certainly gives the advantage to the other side, wouldn't you say?

Which is not to say owners and/or management shouldn't have rights as well.

Guess in reality we have a 3 way system, Labor, Management, and Shareholders when it comes to these large businesses.

But then the Strong Management/Weak Owner's model is a whole other topic.
Unions did have their place in the development of industrialized America, but they are dead wood these days. The unions, are, to a great extent, the reason why the USA has become a nation of fast food joints and WalMarts.

IMO the unions need to go & the government needs to offer refundable tax credits for AMERICAN cars built between 2008 & 2013.
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Old 12-08-2008, 09:13 AM
 
5,273 posts, read 11,918,506 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosinante View Post
Well, it's not often that I would disagree with you, B.P., but the American people, in general, have been hoodwinked into believing that these two propaganda merchants spread the gospel when in, in fact, they're just as specious as any other mouthpiece. To wit: my wife's 2005 Chrysler 300 hasn't required anything but a new set of tires after 88,000 miles, while my 2006 Dodge Magnum has behaved just as well after 62,000 miles (although I did have to replace a tire after only 3500 miles because it got a nail in it ó the tire, BTW, was a German Continental).

In fact, I know several Chrysler owners, most of whom drive more miles than average drivers, and none of them has any complaints. Meanwhile, my peer-group-influenced acquaintances have had their BMWs and Lexuses back to the shop for silly little things that should have be caught before they left their factories. So much for foreign cars: they're just a joke.

I have no doubt there are many trouble free american made cars and some troublesome Japanese cars. Just because, statistically speaking, Chrysler makes the worst cars doesn;t mean there aren't many good ones. If you want, I can go into more depth about the figures and what they mean.
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Old 12-08-2008, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Louisiana
1,740 posts, read 2,932,888 times
Reputation: 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLAZER PROPHET View Post
I have no doubt there are many trouble free american made cars and some troublesome Japanese cars. Just because, statistically speaking, Chrysler makes the worst cars doesn;t mean there aren't many good ones. If you want, I can go into more depth about the figures and what they mean.

Again, I've seen published figures and I know what they do and don't mean, B.P.. My point is that many people believe this stuff and shouldn't. After all, it's not that my wife and I lead star-crossed lives, we just tend ignore Consumer Reports' BS.
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Old 12-09-2008, 12:20 PM
 
2,005 posts, read 5,125,049 times
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My brother works in an auto plant in Detroit as a SKILLED labor person (electrician) and doesn't make $170,000 a year. Even when he put in tons of overtime and worked holidays, he still didn't make that much. So to say that a line worker makes that much, is quite honestly, baloney. It makes my blood boil when people get on air and claim that line workers make $70 an hour, they don't.

Bottom line: YES, bailout Detroit. We are at the cusp of an industrial revolution and we need to be a part of it. Also, in Japan, they have bailed out Toyota, and the auto industry there doesn't have the health care costs that our big 3 has to eat. Another thing: if no one wants gas guzzling trucks and SUVs, then why is that all I see when I drive around town? People were buying big cars and therefore they were making them.

Last point: I drive two American made union made automobiles, and love them. People who are so warped in their thinking that Japanese cars are so much better are brainwashed. Support our economy and drive American made cars.
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Old 12-09-2008, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA
2,290 posts, read 4,948,909 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgod View Post
Ed Wallace, writing in "Business Week-Online" puts forth a very strong case for why taxpayers should put money into "bailing out/bridge lending/assisting" Detroit automakers.

Can America Survive Without Detroit? - BusinessWeek

And in it he paints a telling picture of Mitt Romney as the politician with typical "bumper sticker" solutions, who's op-ed piece in the NYT (?) was so full of errors as to make it laughable.

Whether you're for or against any of the bailouts it's important to read this article, and others, so that you are at least well informed about the subject. Of course too many posters won't read it for the same reason that they don't read, or listen to, or watch, anything that disagrees with their pre-packaged worldview.

I hope the link works, I've never tried posting a link before.

golfgod
Wallace is, as with most of the self-serving and pro-bailout politicians and pundits, off the mark. Loaning--no, giving--Big Auto a $100 billion or more dollars will only stave off the inevitable (at least for GM and Chrysler). It is their failed business models that have led them to this point, and it's these same failed business models that they want desparately to keep. Receiving billions from self-interested politicians is precisely the way to do it.

Think about it. If they had to go into Chapter 11 reorganization, they'd have to function by a whole different set of rules. No cozy Congressmen to help them along; just a bunch of court-mandated rules and regulations that let them off the hook with their creditors, while allowing them to come back into private operation, albeit at a less profitable (but much more humble) position. Big Auto execs want anything but that. They'd rather rely on bought-and-sold politicians, than rely on the consumer.

What guys like Wallace need to realize is that Big Auto isn't going to remake itself into an industry that makes attractive vehicles with state-of-the-art drive trains that maximize performance while nullifying energy use. They're begging for money so that they can continue to build and sell overpriced and under-valued vehicles.
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Old 12-09-2008, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA
2,290 posts, read 4,948,909 times
Reputation: 784
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandycat View Post
My brother works in an auto plant in Detroit as a SKILLED labor person (electrician) and doesn't make $170,000 a year. Even when he put in tons of overtime and worked holidays, he still didn't make that much. So to say that a line worker makes that much, is quite honestly, baloney. It makes my blood boil when people get on air and claim that line workers make $70 an hour, they don't.

Bottom line: YES, bailout Detroit. We are at the cusp of an industrial revolution and we need to be a part of it. Also, in Japan, they have bailed out Toyota, and the auto industry there doesn't have the health care costs that our big 3 has to eat. Another thing: if no one wants gas guzzling trucks and SUVs, then why is that all I see when I drive around town? People were buying big cars and therefore they were making them.

Last point: I drive two American made union made automobiles, and love them. People who are so warped in their thinking that Japanese cars are so much better are brainwashed. Support our economy and drive American made cars.
That's the mindset that will keep Big Auto continually begging for our tax dollars.
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Old 12-09-2008, 01:00 PM
 
2,005 posts, read 5,125,049 times
Reputation: 1447
Quote:
Originally Posted by backfist View Post
That's the mindset that will keep Big Auto continually begging for our tax dollars.
What mindset? The mindset that American cars are just as good as Japanese cars? The mindset (or fact) that auto workers don't earn $170,000 a year? Or the mindset that the big 3 have to pay out health care costs that the Japanese or European companies don't? I'm not sure what you're saying?

I just literally, today, talked to a woman about her Mazda. A car that we would have considered buying. She started telling me about all her other cars before this one that had tons of problems, they were all Toyotas or Hondas. I don't buy the fact that America makes crummy cars, I just don't.
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