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Old 12-26-2008, 05:24 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
2,806 posts, read 6,182,832 times
Reputation: 3239

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The debate here is actually ethical/spiritual in nature. If you believe everything in the universe is connected, like a web, and everything you do to the web you do to yourself, you will not find a creature less important than yourself, because you realize it is part of you, as all things are. If you are of a different school of thought whereby spirit, karma, and good intention are ignored or disbelieved, you will believe EVERY creature is less important that yourself and will feel justified in taking whatever liberties you wish.
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Old 12-26-2008, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Back in New York
1,104 posts, read 3,284,849 times
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Thanks for starting this thread here Alex.

As for microchipping...I hate the idea because its the start of government tracking. I am fortunate that I dont have a problem with my cats wandering off. Human tracking has started already though....credit cards, cell phones....now they have these cell phones where you can track your friends? This is f*ckin crazy.

I am in a tough position on a lot of this issue. Like most ppl I love to eat meat but also believe all LIFE has the right to be treated kindly. My solution with the meat industry is quite simple....jus ttreat the animals well while they are alive and make their death as painless and non-violent as possible. Thats not asking a lot.

PETA sux, they actually make ppl stand against there cause. If Peta would go about things in a more civilized manner I would respect them more.

We often forget humans are animals! Guess what we go for our basic needs too. We just go about it in a more complex way. Our basic necessities don't differ from other animals. We want to eat and pro-create. I think we are very fortunate to be the most intelligent species but we needed to be this intelligent or we would not survive a day out in nature.
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Old 12-26-2008, 05:41 PM
 
Location: Back in New York
1,104 posts, read 3,284,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luvmycat View Post
The debate here is actually ethical/spiritual in nature. If you believe everything in the universe is connected, like a web, and everything you do to the web you do to yourself, you will not find a creature less important than yourself, because you realize it is part of you, as all things are. If you are of a different school of thought whereby spirit, karma, and good intention are ignored or disbelieved, you will believe EVERY creature is less important that yourself and will feel justified in taking whatever liberties you wish.

Every living thing on this earth is connected. Humans dont differ much genetically from an earthworm for christ sakes. There was a time in history where african americans were considered property and not human. Now we realize how stupid thinking that way was. Once we see the bigger picture and understand that we are part of nature as opposed to being nature I think we will understand that EVERY LIVING should be able to live its life free of abuses that we impose. I know certain animals will always be food, I know the gov. will always experiment with animals (which I think is wrong for the record, I hate the gov) and certain ppl will hunt. Fine, I don't expect that to change but I dont think someone should get a pet to mistreat it because the fact of the matter is animals do have emotions and they do feel pain. That is just a fact and its not open for debate. I know because of my yrs of experience working with them and I think anyone who is intuitive could tell you that.

I am not asking that other animals should have the right to vote...lol...I am just saying that we and other animals can co-exsist peacefully.

Last edited by CleanCutHippie; 12-26-2008 at 06:02 PM..
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Old 12-26-2008, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Back in New York
1,104 posts, read 3,284,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NativeNYCer View Post
To the OP: Great thread!

My son & I wonder about this all the time b/c we watch Animal Planet, and there's this show "It's Me or the Dog" that we watch w/amazement at people who seriously treat there pets BETTER than their spouses and/or children.

I think recently, the conversation of animal rights has taken a bad turn from making sure that animals aren't mistreated, into animals are better than people, so just look out for animals. It seems that there are more people in this world that care about the well being of animals, than the well being of people.

I once had a friend of mine yell at me b/c I said that monkeys are ugly. "Animals are NOT ugly!" I seriously thought she was joking. This is the same person who will call a guy ugly in a minute. This is also the same person who HATES children, and constantly makes comments about how annoying they are. (I have a son)

As the owner of the sweetest cat in the world, I would never put her before my child. It sounds stupid to say that,but it just shows how far this whole animal rights v. people rights has gone. I love her and I do my best to take care of her w/whatever she needs, food, affection, etc., but I still don't understand this mentality that a lot of people have that values animal lives over human lives.

I treat my pets as part of my family, in fact they are my family at the moment. If someone doesn't like kids but likes animals better that is their choice. Your entitled to like other animals over humans as well. If you mistreat a child you deserve to go to jail and I think the same if you mistreat an animal that you got as a pet.
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Old 12-26-2008, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Back in New York
1,104 posts, read 3,284,849 times
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Alex, I actually do obstain from medical advances because the direction its going in is WRONG! They are not using these animals to find cures. Pharma companies are using them to see how much of a drug our body can take. I am fortunate to be healthy and I never take any drug a pharma company makes...I know this is a whole other thread but if I get a terminal disease I will call it a life. I know thats just my opinion but thought I would get that out there.
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Old 12-26-2008, 05:54 PM
 
Location: Back in New York
1,104 posts, read 3,284,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
I disagree with your blurring of the line between humans and other animals. As I've said in the first post, the distinction comes from the capacity to reason, be independent economic actors, and respect the rights of others - "benefit" or "means to an end" has nothing to do with it. Animals aren't free, so whoever chooses to torture them clearly sees enough of a benefit to spend money on that. Since humans have complete control over animal populations, those animals won't even exist if it wasn't for the economic demand s\he is creating.

There is some correlation between treating animals badly and treating humans badly, true (though plenty of animal rights nuts are willing harm humans), as there is with enjoyment of violence in a video game or against a punching bag - you want to outlaw all those things? Where do you draw the line?

You can vote until you're blue in the face, it doesn't give you the right to deprive other human beings of their rights, no matter how noble, popular, and emotionally-justified you think you think your reasons are. And your prohibition on violence against animals doesn't just harm the animal-torturing fiend, it harms everyone by creating a criminal black market, as prohibitions always do, throwing otherwise economically-productive people into prison for not sharing your love of animals, spending tax-victims' money on added law enforcement and incarceration, and so on.

Wasting money on incarceration. I think ppl who are cruel to animals do deserve it. Because they are mistreating a LIVING thing.

PPL who sell/use drugs, now thats a collosal waste of incarceration as the war from drugs has shown us.

Animals living in the wild are free and should be left free. If someone want to go out and hunt them...thats their choice.

WE ARE ANIMALS. Lets not forget that simple fact.

Last edited by CleanCutHippie; 12-26-2008 at 06:04 PM..
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Old 12-26-2008, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
543 posts, read 924,429 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CleanCutHippie View Post
I treat my pets as part of my family, in fact they are my family at the moment. If someone doesn't like kids but likes animals better that is their choice. Your entitled to like other animals over humans as well. If you mistreat a child you deserve to go to jail and I think the same if you mistreat an animal that you got as a pet.

I understand that pets are considered family. But there is a line drawn between children and pets, to me anyway. I would die for my child. No questions asked. He is my heart and soul. I can't say the same about my cat. If that makes me a terrible person, I am a terrible person.
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Old 12-26-2008, 07:31 PM
 
Location: Back in New York
1,104 posts, read 3,284,849 times
Reputation: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by NativeNYCer View Post
I understand that pets are considered family. But there is a line drawn between children and pets, to me anyway. I would die for my child. No questions asked. He is my heart and soul. I can't say the same about my cat. If that makes me a terrible person, I am a terrible person.
No one is saying that you should treat your cat better then your child. To me as long as you treat your cat good I have no issue with it. Nothing should ever be stronger then the bond between parent/child.

I have a major problem with ppl who treat their animals poorly because its their right....I understand the premise but if you treat an animal poorly you should be punished. I have scars on my hand to show how I fight for what I believe in. Unfortunately my arguement won't win many debates because I eat meat and realize how hypocritical my arguement it is..
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Old 12-26-2008, 08:21 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
2,806 posts, read 6,182,832 times
Reputation: 3239
Quote:
Originally Posted by CleanCutHippie View Post
Alex, I actually do obstain from medical advances because the direction its going in is WRONG! They are not using these animals to find cures. Pharma companies are using them to see how much of a drug our body can take. I am fortunate to be healthy and I never take any drug a pharma company makes...I know this is a whole other thread but if I get a terminal disease I will call it a life. I know thats just my opinion but thought I would get that out there.
I don't use any synthetic drugs either...don't trust chemicals in my body when I know through plants, herbs, meditation and other holistic means I can achieve HEALING rather than covering up the symptoms, which is what most synthetic drugs do...they are band-aids while holistic therapies address issues at the root of the problem.
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Old 12-26-2008, 09:05 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
7,091 posts, read 10,320,115 times
Reputation: 4104
I'm not sure you get more points for posting an entire thread yourself CleanCutHippie.
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