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Old 01-30-2009, 10:55 AM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
You are restating what I wrote. Supply of money goes down, price goes down.



NO.

It is usury when a fee, in money, is charged for the use / loan of money - compound or simple interest. Even if the individual contract appears benign, when usury is computed collectively, the monetary system cannot support it. Usury is a scam to steal other people's property.

Invest money and demand principle and interest, you are a usurer.
Invest money and only demand principle repaid in money, you are not a usurer.

Of course, if you want to find an apologist for usury, read ADAM SMITH "The Wealth of Nations".
Jet, you appear to be very much alone in your assessment of economics. Charging interest is not a bad thing. Banking is not a bad thing. What is bad is when people take advantages of loop holes and make bad business decisions--(sub-prime loans, ponzi schemes, etc). Its not the foundation of free markets as applied to money that is bad. What is bad is "working the angles" instead of making sound business decisions.

Jet, I can tell from your posts that you've taken a couple of business classes, but honestly, you need to cross-compare the results of market driven economies with non-market economies. Then you need to research the nature of money and banking.
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Old 01-30-2009, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
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Oops, Jet, Sorry....but I forgot to say one very important thing:
The errors in your thinking were quite prevalent in pre-industrial Europe. Many people thought the same way. As a result of that, there was insuficient capital investment to cause the standard of living to increase. Of course, there were other causes of that too--no one cause stands alone. But the inability to run a bank certainly was one of them. Jet, for your sake, and for the sake of many people around you, I hope you do not get much of a following...it's not that your ideas are "dangerous", it's just that they can impeded economic growth.
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Old 01-31-2009, 12:43 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,020 posts, read 14,196,312 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcashley View Post
Jet, you appear to be very much alone in your assessment of economics. Charging interest is not a bad thing. Banking is not a bad thing. What is bad is when people take advantages of loop holes and make bad business decisions--(sub-prime loans, ponzi schemes, etc). Its not the foundation of free markets as applied to money that is bad. What is bad is "working the angles" instead of making sound business decisions.

Jet, I can tell from your posts that you've taken a couple of business classes, but honestly, you need to cross-compare the results of market driven economies with non-market economies. Then you need to research the nature of money and banking.
Actually, I've done more than take a few business classes. I am quite familiar with time value of money mathematics. However, calculating compound interest, annuities and future worth avoids the fact that usury is mathematically impossible and unsustainable.

This conclusion is not new, but goes far back in antiquity. The condemnation of usury is part of every major religion. Even Aristotle condemned it.

In 1836 John Whipple, an American lawyer, showed the impossibility of sustaining long term metallic usury:
" If 5 English pennies... had been... at 5 per cent compound interest from the beginning of the Christian era until the present time, it would amount in gold of standard fineness to 32,366,648,157 spheres of gold each eight thousand miles in diameter, or as large as the earth."
[Translation - impossible to pay]
" (the purpose of money is to facilitate exchange) It was never intended as an article of trade, as an article possessing an inherent value in itself, (but) as a representative or test of the value of all other articles. It undoubtedly admits of private ownership but of an ownership that is not absolute, like the product of individual industry, but qualified and limited by the special use for which it was designed...."
[Whipple poetically expressed the flaw inherent in usury - the
impossibility to repay all usury denominated in precious metal coin.]

For the sake of argument, let's say usury is harmless. What happens when the aggregate outstanding obligation of principle and interest exceeds the sum total of all money in existence, is it still harmless?

A proportion of debtors will be unable to pay their debts. A proportion of creditors will either confiscate the pledged collateral of the debtors (legally steal) or if unsecured, suffer loss. And this is inevitable because enough money does not exist for all debtors to repay their obligations.

Do you sincerely believe that engaging in contracts based on trickery, fraud and deception is "good business"?

Long term usury is mathematically impossible to pay - and business booms and busts are the inevitable consequence of it.

BTW - the ten trillion dollar national debt is one of those unpleasant situations caused by usury that you dismiss as "economic growth".

1. The debt is not payable with "dollar bills" (Federal Reserve Notes). FRNs are debt instruments (minus value). Minus plus a minus is more minus. (See Title 12 USC sec. 411)

2. Based on the Coinage Act of 1792, the ten trillion dollar debt represents a LEGAL obligation of Congress to pay the creditor 500 billion ounces of gold stamped into coin. The estimated world supply of all above ground bullion is 5 billion ounces. Fort Knox depository holds 147.3 million ounces. At current mining rates, it would take 877,000 years to mine enough bullion - if the debt was frozen right now.

3. How Currency Gets into Circulation - Fedpoints - Federal Reserve Bank of New York
" As of December 2007, currency in circulation—that is, U.S. coins and paper currency in the hands of the public—totaled about $829 billion dollars. "

4. The dearth of circulating medium of exchange coupled with the collapse of speculative value of pledged assets combined with the FACT that roughly 2700 FRNs per capita is all that is available spells CHAOS.

It's not loopholes, nor Ponzi schemes (Like Congress is running, since it borrowed MORE than it paid in interest in 2007 and 2008), nor sub-prime loans that caused the economic mess. It was usury, itself.
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Old 01-31-2009, 01:01 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
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BTW - if every one who received a check cashed it, and did not deposit it to their account, the banking system would collapse in less than ten days.
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Old 01-31-2009, 01:13 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,020 posts, read 14,196,312 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcashley View Post
The errors in your thinking were quite prevalent in pre-industrial Europe. Many people thought the same way. As a result of that, there was insuficient capital investment to cause the standard of living to increase. Of course, there were other causes of that too--no one cause stands alone. But the inability to run a bank certainly was one of them.
Pre-industrial Europe or any culture that relied on hard money (precious metal coin) was trapped by the finite and scarce money system. Usurers prey upon such societies.

Personally, I do not subscribe to the hard money philosophy.

I also do not subscribe to the "elastic currency" scam of the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. Pursuant to Title 12 USC Sec. 411, every FRN is borrowed, at usury, into existence. It bankrupted the U.S.A. in only 20 years (1913 - 1933), and precipitated national socialism (Social Security Act of 1935).



MONEY IS:

[1] A medium of exchange

[2] An accounting symbol

[3] Proportional to the marketplace

MONEY HAS:

[4] No intrinsic value outside of the marketplace

MONEY IS NOT:

[5] real

MONEY CANNOT:

[6] be saved

[7] be invested,at usury, in a finite money token system

[8] be owned, in the sense that it can be bought and sold

MONEY SHOULD NOT:

[9] be limited or under restriction, save that of the marketplace

[10] be under the control of parasites (government, usurers)

[11] be worshiped

[12] be a goal of one's life


[1,2,3] Whether you realize it or not, money is a medium of exchange that facilitates the creation and trade of usable (surplus) goods and services. It is a mechanism that simplifies trade of different items, services, and volumes. As an accounting symbol, for the value of all goods and services in the marketplace, it must be proportional to that marketplace. If it ceases to be proportional, then someone will suffer inequitable trade.

[4] Money, as an accounting system, has no function if there is nothing in the marketplace. Without a marketplace, money cannot facilitate trade. A sum of money without anything to buy has no value.

[5] An accounting system, by which one tracks sum of items, goods, and services, should not be something from within the marketplace. In fact, if one uses an item taken from the marketplace, a mathematical error will occur. In set theory, if M (money) is proportional to S (sum of all goods / services), making anything from S, will generate a paradox. For example, if G (gold) is deemed to be the preferred money token, and it is 1% of the whole Sum, we can set up the equation:

G = (.01 S)

BUT

We must now make G have a value proportional to the whole set (S), so that we can trade.

G (proportional to) S.

So 1/10 G can buy 1/10 S.

HOWEVER

Gold, which is 1% of Sum of all, can buy all. Yet G is a subset of S.

G = (.01S), so (0.01S) = S.

One percent of the gold, as "money", can buy all the gold (which represents 1% of S).

See the problem now?

"Hard money" requires insanity to function. Anything of intrinsic value from within the marketplace cannot be used as money. Especially since the marketplace varies,disproportionate to the item deemed to be money.

[6] If money is a mechanism to account for value, facilitate trade, and is proportional to the marketplace, you cannot "save" it. Taking money out of circulation only prevents it from its function – moving goods and services equitably. In fact, the more money taken out of circulation by hoarding / saving, the less trade can occur, since there is not enough money tokens to facilitate trade. By making money scarce (disproportionate to the marketplace), the sellers cannot sell, or must accept LESS money. If they cannot sell, they suffer. And if have to accept less money, they cannot equitably trade (nor pay outstanding bills).

[7] Though we might think we're "saving" money when we deposit it with bankers (usurers), buy bonds (usury) or "invest" it in stock corporations, for interest (usury), we are not. The money is put into circulation, facilitating trade. The usurer charges a fee, in money, for the use of that money, and pays a portion to the investor.

However, if the money token system is finite (as is precious metal coin), aggregate usury is impossible to pay. The sum of principle and interest owed exceeds the whole set of available money tokens. A proportion of debtors will default, simply because the money does not exist. And they will lose their valuable property pledged as collateral on the debt. That is why usury is proscribed as an abomination, and denounced by almost all religions.

When we're told that it's "wise to invest", mathematics says we are unwise.

For example, if "everybody" invested 10% of their money, within one time unit of usury, the resulting debt would be impossible to discharge.


Let S (whole sum of money), and 0.1 S (10% invested, at usury), for 10% simple interest per time unit, computes to:

Interest: 1.1 x (0.1 S) = 0.11 S

BUT

Add the usury to the remaining money supply and an error exists.
0.9 S + 0.11 S = 1.01 S

To pay the usury, the money supply (S) would have to grow 1%. If the supply is static or cannot grow at the necessary rate, investors will be unpaid, debtors will default.

This problem is compounded when the money token is borrowed into existence at usury. Each unit created imposes an obligation for more money, which, in turn, can only be created by greater debt. Ergo, debt-credit money tokens are catastrophic tools that destroy productive societies for the benefit of parasites and predators.

[* special note : in America's case, the bimetallic standard was another disaster in the making. A simple solution would be to make the unit dollar a silver coin, and designate a gold coin as an eagle, without stipulating any proportionality, by law. That way, the market value of the silver to gold would not create havoc. Contracts payable in dollars might be negotiated with eagles, but that would be a private agreement, not imposed by statutory law.]

[8] There are many people who believe that money must have an intrinsic value, such as precious metal (gold, silver, platinum) or it violates religious law. However, I sincerely doubt that God would impose a money token system that cannot function equitably. The marketplace of goods and services can always grow larger from
(a) rising population of laborers,
(b) tools that multiply the labor, and
(c) automation that produces goods and services without additional input of labor. If the money token system is finite, composed of scarce precious metal coin, it will impose chaos. The harder you work or produce, the less money you earn. If you are in debt, the harder you work, or produce, the less you earn, and thus cannot pay your creditor. Scarce money is a recipe for economic disaster. In fact, scarcity of money drives demand for credit, at usury, offered by bankers.

Therefore, a sound money system (honest accounting) cannot be composed of any "thing" that can be bought or sold in the marketplace, if equitable trade is to exist. It would be as absurd as charging a fee to make each tick mark on a tablet, used to keep score.

[9] For a "free market" to truly exist, the medium of exchange has to be free to grow / shrink in proportion to it. If any disproportionality exists, either the seller or the buyer will be cheated. Those who can manipulate the illusion of abstract money can enrich themselves at the expense of others. Mankind has suffered from the predation of usurers for millennia. And we still willingly cooperate with those who prey upon us. Worse, we are indoctrinated to copy them, and debase ourselves, and "run with the pack". And it's no surprise when folks are "thrown to the wolves!"

One way that the supply of money tokens can adjust is when producers / laborers of new goods and services can issue private promissory notes (ex: coupons) denominated in that which they can do, have or produce. A farmer can issue notes denominated in harvest, or animals, or products. Laborers can issue notes denominated in hours of labor or specific services. Enterprises can issue notes, denominated in that which they offer. A restaurant can issue notes, denominated in meals, or other services.

When the note is tendered to the maker, it is extinguished when the trade is completed. If an entrepreneur needs to purchase goods or services, but has no "money", he can emit promises (notes) to capitalize. He need not beg for debt-credit, at usury, from a bankster. He then discharges his promises, when his enterprise is up and running, without the burden of usury, nor the requirement to fight for a share of scarce money tokens.

[10] A money system should not be under the control of parasites (government, usurers), who produce no goods nor services. A government may offer its services for oversight and offering recourse and remedy, in the pursuit of justice (giving everyman his due).

A private promissory note money token system, by itself, would probably be limited in scope to a local community, where the people knew the credit worthiness of the note makers.

For a larger marketplace, a widely circulating note / money token, is necessary. A bank, acting as a note warehouse, may be one solution. A note could be tendered, discounted by the bank, and bank notes given in exchange. There would be no pressure to create new money tokens, because there would be no usury, nor compound interest. The bank can either tender the note for discharge (making profit from the discount) or sell it to another.

[11] Obviously, we've been taught to worship money, chase after it, be persuaded to act against our better natures, by it. That must change. And the first place change occurs is within each individual.

[12] We must all awaken from the nightmare where money was the goal of one's life work. True prosperity is the creation of usable goods and services, their exchange, and the time to enjoy those goods and services. Any other activity is counterproductive, including war, usury, theft, and parasitism.


Conclusion:
The constitutional limitation to gold and silver coin as lawful money is one of the inherent problems that must be addressed.
And the failure to outlaw usury is another problem that needs to be addressed.
Until those issues are resolved, the money insanity will continue to destroy the economy of the U.S.A.
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Old 01-31-2009, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
3,196 posts, read 5,395,675 times
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Quote:
G (proportional to) S.

So 1/10 G can buy 1/10 S.

HOWEVER

Gold, which is 1% of Sum of all, can buy all. Yet G is a subset of S.

G = (.01S), so (0.01S) = S.

One percent of the gold, as "money", can buy all the gold (which represents 1% of S).

See the problem now?"
This is known as the fallacy of equivocation. The logical structure of your arguement utilizes multiple definitons of S.

Quote:
For example, if "everybody" invested 10% of their money, within one time unit of usury, the resulting debt would be impossible to discharge.


Let S (whole sum of money), and 0.1 S (10% invested, at usury), for 10% simple interest per time unit, computes to:

Interest: 1.1 x (0.1 S) = 0.11 S

BUT

Add the usury to the remaining money supply and an error exists.
0.9 S + 0.11 S = 1.01 S
This is known as the fallacy of composition. Your logical structure requires that because one must be true all must be true and vice versa.

Please improve your arguement, so that it makes sense to me.
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Old 01-31-2009, 10:44 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,020 posts, read 14,196,312 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcashley View Post
Please improve your argument, so that it makes sense to me.
Why are pennies no longer made of solid copper?
Because copper costs more than the statutory value of pennies.

Likewise when the penny was worth more than the copper bullion, the penny of copper bought more copper than what was in the penny.

Metal used for coin has two values - the statutory value of stamped coin and the bullion value.

Does that make sense to you?
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Old 01-31-2009, 11:38 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,020 posts, read 14,196,312 times
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Quote:
Posted by: dcashley
On: 01-31-2009 07:08 PM

---Quote---
G (proportional to) S.

So 1/10 G can buy 1/10 S.

HOWEVER

Gold, which is 1% of Sum of all, can buy all. Yet G is a subset of S.

G = (.01S), so (0.01S) = S.

One percent of the gold, as "money", can buy all the gold (which represents 1% of S).

See the problem now?"
---End Quote---

This is known as the fallacy of equivocation. The logical structure of your arguement utilizes multiple definitons of S.
YOU ARE INCORRECT.
Equivocation is ambiguity arising from the misleading use of a word and amphiboly is ambiguity arising from misleading use of punctuation or syntax.

The term S means SUM of all in the marketplace.
The term G, was assumed to be .01 x S, which was shown as 0.01S = G
For the G to be able to buy everything in the marketplace, it would have to have a value proportional to ALL S.
G = (0.01 S) = S
And 0.01 G can buy all G (which is 0.01 of S).

That's not equivocation, but an example of a mathematical paradox.

The fallacy is in the minds of people who routinely attribute real value to the abstraction of money.

Quote:
---Quote---
For example, if "everybody" invested 10% of their money, within one time unit of usury, the resulting debt would be impossible to discharge.


Let S (whole sum of money), and 0.1 S (10% invested, at usury), for 10% simple interest per time unit, computes to:

Interest: 1.1 x (0.1 S) = 0.11 S

BUT

Add the usury to the remaining money supply and an error exists.
0.9 S + 0.11 S = 1.01 S
---End Quote---

This is known as the fallacy of composition. Your logical structure requires that because one must be true all must be true and vice versa.

Please improve your arguement, so that it makes sense to me.
YOU ARE IN ERROR.
A fallacy of composition arises when one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole (or even of every proper part).

The mathematical equation does not represent a fallacy of composition.

It merely shows that in a finite money token system where S= Sum of all money, investing 10% of that money, at a 10% interest rate, would be impossible to pay.

S = 0.9 S + 0.1 S
Invest 0.1 S at 10% interest rate, and the outstanding obligation becomes 0.11 S.

Add the 0.9 S + 0.11S and the result is 1.01 S (101%).
Since S is the whole set of money, usury requires the money supply to grow - or else some investors will not receive their gain or debtors will default.
If those debtors pledged collateral, the usurers will gain that property via the scam of usury. Since it is a mathematical impossibility for all debtors to pay usury in a finite money token system, usury is nothing less than a vile scheme to rob.
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Old 02-01-2009, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
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Jet, do you really think you are going to develop much of a following of your economic program?
I think you are pretty much alone in your analysis, and your conclusions.
I wish you the best of luck in that regard, but I for one am turning my attention to people who are able to engage in critical thinking.
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Old 02-01-2009, 01:03 PM
 
3,210 posts, read 4,612,401 times
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I don't believe there will be all the cataclysims everyone is waiting for. No nukes or astroids or fires or ice ages or floods or aliens, etc. I believe the true danger is the insidous and unstoppable erosion of our moral fiber. Religon will be replaced by "Humanism" and calls for further societal collectivsation. While on the surface is nice, in the end my vision is a world much like "Animal Farm" meets "The Jungle" where government/corporate interests heavy-handedly rule over a immoral,predatory and violent society. Law is replaced by "Social Justice" which states if you have what I want then I can take it. Anarchy.
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