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Old 01-02-2009, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Vermont
1,475 posts, read 3,591,325 times
Reputation: 824

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Here's my observation. Most of the people I know who carry guns are pretty much idiots. I'm not saying everyone who carries a gun is the lower IQ type, just most of them.

I don't know anyone who has ever thwarted a robber or mugger with a gun.
I'm sure it happens, but more often than not, these guys just get into trouble with their guns-or eventually have them stolen from their cars.

Thankfully I don't know anyone who has actually used their gun, but I'm sure at best the result would be a shot off a toe, and at worst, a killed innocent onlooker.
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:06 PM
 
Location: The Woods
16,458 posts, read 21,499,103 times
Reputation: 8417
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYLIER View Post
You just read my mind picante! I was going to bring the subject of mace up. I keep it in the house. I bought one for my daughter to keep on her keychain. Everyone laughed at me when I told them I would use it in the woods if an animal tried to attack me. I keep it next to my bed at night in case of a break in. Will mace protect me or my daughter if we need to use it?
Won't help much against a rabid animal. Might just get you shot if you use it on an armed thug.
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Old 01-02-2009, 07:38 PM
 
Location: hinesburg, vt
1,574 posts, read 4,348,157 times
Reputation: 395
Quote:
Originally Posted by picante View Post
Reading how many people are carrying concealed guns in VT is a bit scary. Reading how many people believe they are trained to use a gun in a confrontational situation is also scary. Knowing how to use a gun and when to use a gun are very different things. I'm not sure what Artichomesteader thinks a gun would have done were he in the Riteaid, but were he to pull it out, and it sounds like he would have, someone would have been hurt. I'm glad that neither he or anyone else that carries a gun was at Riteaid at the time. He is right that it could have turned out very differently...if someone else had a gun.

I understand keeping a gun at home for protection. A gun isn't going to protect you when walking down the street, but it is going to get someone hurt. Most gun injuries are

"as experience has taught me you never know when you will run up against a situation where you are targeted as a potential victim and escape is not an option" Edkop, what experiences have you had where you needed to use a gun b/c escape was not an option? If like the troopers you mentioned "even folks with training and a mental expectation of having to use force will not perform to desired standard" How can you expect any Joe Schmoe who carries a gun use it correctly?

If you feel you need to carry something, please consider carrying mace.
Experience, yeah a bit. Ten years US Army (Military Police), ten years with USAF (Law Enforcement Supervisor), ten years with a civilian police department as a Sr Patrol Officer. Thirty years combined with thousands of encounters of which several hundred involved use of force applications. I think I'll keep my firearm. Experience is great, but any rational and menatlly stable individual with proper training who chooses to carry a firearm is an asset to the community as the police can not be everywhere. For those who want to carry "mace" it's a bit outdated, get 5.5% Oleoresin Capsicum, but realize that you will need to be very up and close and hope you don't get self incapacitating blowback.
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Old 01-02-2009, 07:48 PM
 
29 posts, read 68,217 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by picante View Post
"as experience has taught me you never know when you will run up against a situation where you are targeted as a potential victim and escape is not an option" Edkop, what experiences have you had where you needed to use a gun b/c escape was not an option?
Thanks for clearing that up Flu189, I was misquoted by Picante. For the record though, I was an inner city cop and can go on and on about those 'experiences', but that's another topic.
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Old 01-02-2009, 07:53 PM
 
Location: hinesburg, vt
1,574 posts, read 4,348,157 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quickdraw View Post
Here's my observation. Most of the people I know who carry guns are pretty much idiots. I'm not saying everyone who carries a gun is the lower IQ type, just most of them.

I don't know anyone who has ever thwarted a robber or mugger with a gun.
I'm sure it happens, but more often than not, these guys just get into trouble with their guns-or eventually have them stolen from their cars.

Thankfully I don't know anyone who has actually used their gun, but I'm sure at best the result would be a shot off a toe, and at worst, a killed innocent onlooker.
I know quite a few who have thwarted armed assailants and in fact one very fortunate Vermonter by making it obvious he was armed upon answering his door to two suspicious teens saved himself and his familiy. That case involved the two who then opted to go elsewhere and crossed the border to Hanover, NH where they brutally robbed and murdered the husband and wife Dartmouth College professors. Upon capture they admitted that the aforementioned Vermonter was their choice of target and their intent was to kill the occupants in the belief of eliminating witnesses. A location for a shallow grave had also been scouted out in advance. If some folks don't like the idea of weapons and self defense and feel that people that do suffer from some kind of Dirty Harry machismo, then they really have no clue on how the vast majority of gun owners are actually very prudent and responsible individuals. Personally I am more concerned with idiots having the right to drive motor vehicles as they cause more death and destruction a thousand times over of what users of firearms for protection do. Just remember no matter how tough and restrictive gun laws are, felons will always have access to them.
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Old 01-02-2009, 08:02 PM
 
Location: hinesburg, vt
1,574 posts, read 4,348,157 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edkop View Post
Thanks for clearing that up Flu189, I was misquoted by Picante. For the record though, I was an inner city cop and can go on and on about those 'experiences', but that's another topic.
Amen brother. I too have had numerous very up and close experiences as I too worked in a city with a high violent crime rate. Having first hand knowledge really opens your eyes and gives you a perspective that you just don't get from reading about it or watching it on the tube. Then again, many folks have a preconceived belief and notion and nothing will convince them otherwise.
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Old 01-02-2009, 08:13 PM
 
369 posts, read 810,575 times
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Flu, that last sentence is so true. I am going to have to learn how to use a gun. Not only for my safety, but for my animals. I live pretty far off the road and there is no way anyone is going to hear me scream for help. My husband has a lot of firearms in the house and it is time I learned how to use them. That post was frightening.
My son was in the Army too. He just got hired as a policeman in North Carolina. As his mother, I am very happy for him, but at the same time, am worried for his safety. There are strange people out there that have no respect for life.
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Old 01-02-2009, 08:38 PM
 
Location: hinesburg, vt
1,574 posts, read 4,348,157 times
Reputation: 395
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYLIER View Post
Flu, that last sentence is so true. I am going to have to learn how to use a gun. Not only for my safety, but for my animals. I live pretty far off the road and there is no way anyone is going to hear me scream for help. My husband has a lot of firearms in the house and it is time I learned how to use them. That post was frightening.
My son was in the Army too. He just got hired as a policeman in North Carolina. As his mother, I am very happy for him, but at the same time, am worried for his safety. There are strange people out there that have no respect for life.
If you decide to get a firearm that's good. You don't need a cannon for just basic protection while at the house or out in the woods. There are some very nice light and reliable and easy to understand and operate pistols on the market. Carrying it in a waist pack also conceals it while still making it accessable in a quick manner. By citing the prior example (Dartmouth incident) was not with the intent to sensationalize or frighten, but it is good that it got you attention. It just goes to show that even in virtually the safest state in the country you just never know who or what you may encounter. It is truly sad that there are evil and dangerous people out there, but it is a fact of life. Be glad that at least up to the present that Vermont allows you the right to possess and carry at your discretion without some massive and expensive permitting and regulatory process. Just remember, if you are travelling know the laws because if you cross over into Mass with an unregistered and concealed handgun your life will be made very miserable if discovered.
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Old 01-02-2009, 08:45 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,496,636 times
Reputation: 47457
Quote:
Originally Posted by karenanne1957 View Post
What happens when you use it?
you get charged with criminal offenses. you get sued. you lose.
you lose your job and your home.
the guys that attacked you walk free.
many many people that post on CDF read the penal code on a google search and are absolutely convinced they know what will happen in a court of law if they use their firearm to defend themselves.
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Old 01-02-2009, 08:56 PM
 
Location: hinesburg, vt
1,574 posts, read 4,348,157 times
Reputation: 395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
you get charged with criminal offenses. you get sued. you lose.
you lose your job and your home.
the guys that attacked you walk free.
many many people that post on CDF read the penal code on a google search and are absolutely convinced they know what will happen in a court of law if they use their firearm to defend themselves.
Unfortunately this can be very true. While it is important to understand the law it nonetheless from a laymans perspective can be very confusing. It's also important to understand that no matter on how right you are some DAs, especially elected ones with constituent issues or agendas, may very well charge you. Even a so called justifiable clean shoot can be clouded over by legal eagles, but it still is better to be tried by six versus carried by six. Overall, it's a judgement issue and for those that are honest enough to admit that they are not comfortable to assume such a burden I respect that, just don't advocate that others should follow suit.
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