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Old 01-17-2009, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Nebraska
4,179 posts, read 8,850,545 times
Reputation: 9486

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very true, jtr08 - to a point.
Of course I want them separated from the public, if they are a sociopath and will continue to violate others no matter what... but I also want them, from their very beginning into criminal activity (i.e., taking ANYTHING from anyone else) to have to pay it back. I will shoot, and shoot to kill, anyone who is in the immediate act of robbing or assaulting me. But the drunk who slams into me, or the thief who steals my car, or the robber who breaks into my garage and steals what I have worked very hard to purchase or make and then put away - from each and every one of them I want renumeration, not a slap on the wrist, not a term in prison so that they can just get out and do it again and again, getting worse and worse along the way. I am not interested in revenge, but in THEIR taking responsbility for their acts, and giving back what they took - or at least paying a fine to ME and not the State, or not costing ME money AGAIN, to ensure that they get three hots and a cot while I have to work twice as hard (if they didn't cripple me) just to replace what they took from me.

Aw, BlazerProphet, that's sooo sweet... but I think my DH would probably be irritated if I did. After over 26 years, he's kind of gotten used to me.
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Old 01-17-2009, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,671 posts, read 69,209,366 times
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SCGranny, if a person is chained to the wall of a dark dungeon and thrown scraps of bread and water, does that make you feel "pay back" or "remuneration"? If you feel a sense of personal and emotional satisfaction or fulfillment, and lick your lips, when you contemplate human beings suffering horribly, I fear you as much as I fear any criminal. If you feel compelled to "shoot to kill" anyone who is merely threatening your property, I fear you as much as any criminal.
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Old 01-17-2009, 11:59 PM
 
339 posts, read 616,150 times
Reputation: 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
A part of the principle of our judiciary is to place a wall of separation between ordinary people and those who represent a clear danger. Sadly, these forums are full of people who think the entire purpose it to get revenge against disobediece, but personally, I'd rather keep some space between me and those who are a danger to me, and I am not particularly driven to torture them in the process.

Go back and read the posts. Most people here, and most Americans, are so driven by revenge and bloodlust, they are more interested in giving criminals "what they deserve" (a la Cambodia, e.g.), and less interested in simply separating the community from those who would do us harm. What I said was, I place a higher priority on a wall of separation between me and predators, and less interested in making sure that his life is as miserable as it is possible to make it.

Why do you think the yellow brick road to happiness lies in taking people who can be rehabilited, and instead turning them into angry, hate-fille, revenge-driven thugs out to get even with society, and then releasing them?

And you still don't understand.
Oh...the drama. Are you going to answer the question? What do you suggest we do? Enlighten me on how we accomplish this. Lay out your yellow brick road to hapiness that will keep people from committing heinous crimes. I don't understand, because you don't offer a solution. You just say stuff. Don't just provide a whish-list, give some solutions.

You are stalling when you say stuff like "and you still don't understand", because you don't have anything to offer in the way of a solution (I have to believe). So let's rehabilitate them all. That would be great. I agree. Problem solved. How do we do it? How do we make the prison system more helpful to these people so they won't commit heinous crimes ever again once they get out? How do we heal their hearts instead of making them angrier and more bitter? What are the realities based on your knowledge and experience in dealing with the criminal element and/or "the system"?

I would have to believe that people don't like crime. I would think that, given the choice of a person coming out more hardened or a person coming out "rehabilitated", 99.9 percent of society would choose option B. Offer a solution (or at least a suggestion). Make it realistic though. I don't think following a suspected sociopath around for days or weeks to see how they interact with society thus being able to determine that they are, in fact, a sociopath is too realistic. I can't remember the exact wording you used in determining ones sociopathic ways from your previous post (sorry if I butchered it), but...you at least said something about these people who you considered the worst of the worst (I seem to remember???).
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Old 01-18-2009, 12:41 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,671 posts, read 69,209,366 times
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You challenge me to offer a solution. I foolishly suggested that societies flourish better when their members resolve to treat each other with decency, instead of brutality. When the concept of justice is not driven by unmitigated anger. I'm sorry I suggested such a radical idea to people not yet mature enough to contemplate it.
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Old 01-18-2009, 03:45 AM
 
Location: Florida
17,008 posts, read 17,374,320 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
You challenge me to offer a solution. I foolishly suggested that societies flourish better when their members resolve to treat each other with decency, instead of brutality. When the concept of justice is not driven by unmitigated anger. I'm sorry I suggested such a radical idea to people not yet mature enough to contemplate it.
Mature people realize that idealism is not a solution since it's not in the makeup of human beings to be perfect.
You can contemplate it all you want.
Only the immature thinker thinks there are solutions in the impractical.
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Old 01-18-2009, 03:57 AM
 
Location: Florida
17,008 posts, read 17,374,320 times
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Speaking of practical......
Many years ago I developed what I still think would be a better idea for the prison system.
It would,however, require that all the employees of the system were dedicated,intelligent and of the highest ethics....unbias and unable to be bribed.
That stumbling block made me throw the idea away.
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Old 01-18-2009, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,671 posts, read 69,209,366 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
Speaking of practical......
Many years ago I developed what I still think would be a better idea for the prison system.
It would,however, require that all the employees of the system were dedicated,intelligent and of the highest ethics....unbias and unable to be bribed.
That stumbling block made me throw the idea away.
America is a nation assembled by the lowest bidder.

We are unwilling to pay the cost of Justice (or anything else worth having), Instead, we hire just barely enough hacks, hand them a flow chart, and overwork and underpay them. They push 2-million people off the edge of the earth, more or less at random, and postpone all our problems until tomorrow. The bean counters scream "idealism" at anybody who dares to say a crappy system stinks.


We just gave a couple of trillion dollars to an idealist who said Iraq's crappy system stinks. But we don't have one percent of that available to hire people with dedication, intelligence or ethics to fix a crappy system here at home that stinks.

Men with dedication, intelligence and ethics were found when we needed them to write a Constitution or put a man on the moon. But it's too much to ask them to rehabilitate an offender, it's just a childish pipe dream.

I'm not asking for "perfect". I'm asking for better. An immature ideal that you refuse to consider, and dismiss out of hand as unattainable. Improvement is unattainable. Good start.

Last edited by jtur88; 01-18-2009 at 10:22 AM..
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Old 01-18-2009, 10:37 PM
 
339 posts, read 616,150 times
Reputation: 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
You challenge me to offer a solution. I foolishly suggested that societies flourish better when their members resolve to treat each other with decency, instead of brutality. When the concept of justice is not driven by unmitigated anger. I'm sorry I suggested such a radical idea to people not yet mature enough to contemplate it.
So are you going to offer a solution or some ideas or what?
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Old 01-19-2009, 05:31 AM
 
Location: Nebraska
4,179 posts, read 8,850,545 times
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Um, jtur88, that's a nice utopia, but it simply isn't going to happen. The thin veneer of civilization cracks asunder every time someone wants something without working for it or earning it, every time someone thinks that the world 'owes' them a living, every time someone hands over their hardscrabble efforts to some con artist or power freak, trusting that it won't come back to bite them. Every time you 'reward' a criminal with counseling or a light and ineffective sentence, instead of making him take responsibility for his choices - and they ARE choices, no matter how many excuses society creates for him! - you give him leave to go further and further. The only way to live in a just soicety is to make people responsible for their own actions, their own choices - everything from having babies through maxing out their credit to assaulting others. And you have to start EARLY, not wait until their choices become so heinous that the only recourse is life imprisonment. The little kids that vandalize other peoples' or public property have to be made responsible - or their parents do! - and must be corrected early on. No one becomes a gang member or an armed felon 'overnight', it is always a progression of being allowed to get away with things, an education in the system of how to manpulate that system to their own ends. The kids at Columbine didn't suddenly leap up and start shooting other kids; they had a history of viciousness, threats, criminal behavior - and Mom and Dad paid to get them off so they wouldn't be bothered with them. When everyone, rich or poor, has to be responsible for waht they do, then you might achive a just and civilized society.
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Old 01-19-2009, 08:16 AM
 
878 posts, read 1,807,530 times
Reputation: 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
[MOD CUT]
So how do we "treat each other with decency, instead of brutality"?

If someone kills another human, should we give him a pat on the back, say "nice job, don't do it again" and let him go on his way? Or should he be held accountable for his actions in some way?

Positive reinforcement of behavior only serves to encourage that type of behavior. At some point, an individual who refuses to abide by the laws of society must be punished. That punishment could be anything from loss of freedom (jail, mandatory counseling, mandatory education), economic loss (fines), mutilation (chopping off a thief's hand) or as severe as capital punishment (death).

SCGranny: I find it interesting that you think there should be no punishment for crimes against morality. So you would be in favor of repealing laws against statutory rape, incest, animal cruelty, and obscenity?

Last edited by Ibginnie; 01-19-2009 at 08:21 AM.. Reason: Edited for deleted post
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