Dam Susquehanna, dammit (Brown, solution, dollar, leader)
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Buddy, you're preaching to the choir here. Do you think any of us enjoy being raped of over half our salaries in taxes?
Need I answer that?
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Originally Posted by W-B proud
What do you propose we do about it?
Now, that I can answer.
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Originally Posted by W-B proud
Our esteemed government spent trillions of dollars of our money to make sure the U.S.A can destroy the entire world many times over at a push of a few buttons. They can nuke Earth...what?... one thousand times over? How many millions of "sheeple" would we have to organize to fight that? Two billion people organizing with torches and pitchforks wouldn't even frighten our government that can technically destroy us all at will.
Improbable.
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Originally Posted by W-B proud
The let's take back our government is a nice dream, but let's face it, we are powerless.
That is what they want us to believe.
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Originally Posted by W-B proud
Like I said earlier, we cannot even organize ten people to get outraged enough at our greedy, corrupt Luzerne County government too fight for thier rights by protesting this embarrassment, but I was at the hockey game the other night and it was almost sold out?! As long as people happily bend over and take it in the you know what, and don't even bat an eyebrow, they will continue to run ruffshot right over us. So let the unwashed masses continue to drink beer and listen to ROCK 107 and watch The Family Guy. Ignorance is bliss, and this country is overflowing with tens of millions of ignorant people (just the way our government wants us) that are totally oblivious to what is going on in the real world.
No argument there.
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Originally Posted by W-B proud
Most people in America get more upset if thier football team loses a game, then the fact that our government just handed over our treasury and all our money to Goldman Sach's, Fanny Mae, Freddy Mack and the rest of thier greedy Wall St friends that are spending OUR money further enriching themselves, buying personal jets, going to fancy spas and resorts, giving themselves outrageous bonuses that equal more then any of us will make in a lifetime. But who cares... The 76ers are playing this weekend!. I hate to say it, but we almost deserve it. It's a shame but it is what it is. This country needs another Martin Luther King or someone. A leader that can organize millions of people to stand up against injustice and actually DO SOMETHING ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING TO OUR COUNTRY!!! Most people are much more content grumbling over it with friends at the local corner bar though.
Questions that will certainly annoy as well as educate: Yahoo! Groups
I refrain from posting them here, because it will hijack the thread.
.... and now back to our regularly scheduled show "How the West Susquehanna was dammed..."
[] Make a list of things you'd like to see, do, have as part of a fully engineered Susquehanna river. Wildlife refuges. Aquaculture. Museums. Drawbridges. Aquariums. Bio research stations. Ports. Marinas. Shore line electric streetcars.
[] Determine the counties / congressional districts affected, and compile a list of public servants.
[] Compile a list of questions for the public servants to pass on to the respective professionals (Army Corps of Engineers, Susquehanna River Basin Commission, etc).
[] Find alliances between various interests, to help promote / influence the public servants. Bulk cargo is always cheaper by water. And ship building may become a very popular industry along the shore - barges, houseboats, cruisers, etc.
[] Tally up the hydropower potential and see where it can do double duty - power trains and local communities - and use the railroad right of way along the river as a power line transmission corridor, when electrification of America's mainline railroads is initiated.
[] Determine what the tallest ship clearance is, and design bridges accordingly. Sailboats? Power boats? Skinny barges? Old fashioned stern wheel riverboats?
[] Think BIG - - - It's always easier to put an elephant on a diet, than to make a mouse into an elephant.
What are the various flood stages for the river, to gauge what would be an optimal depth for a navigable channel ?
Would it be acceptable to have graduated channel depths decreasing as you travel up river? Or just settle for a 12 ft. uniform channel depth?
From WIKI:
At the point where the Susquehanna River flows into the bay, the average depth is 30 feet (9 m), although this soon diminishes to an average of 10 feet (3 m) from the city of Havre de Grace for about 35 miles (56 km), to just north of Annapolis. On average, the depth of the bay is 21 feet (7 meters), including tributaries; over 24% of the bay is less than 6 ft (2 m) deep.
WHAT IF - - - as part of the Susquehanna River Authority engineering project, a ship channel of 30 or 40 ft depth is constructed, linking with the Chesapeake and Delaware Canal?
Other waterways and their projects
USACE has a 9-foot Channel Project between St. Paul and St. Louis (Mississippi River).
Port of New Orleans - main channel depth 47 feet (Mississippi River), 30 feet (Inner Harbor), from Baton Rouge to New Orleans, 45 feet.
"The natural depth of New York Harbor is about 17 feet (5 m), but it has been deepened over the years, to about 24 feet (7 m) controlling depth in 1880. By 1891 the Main Ship Channel was minimally 30 feet (9 m). In 1914 Ambrose Channel became the main entrance to the Harbor, at 40 feet (12 m) deep and 2,000 feet (600 m) wide. During World War II the main channel was dredged to 45 feet (14 m) depth to accommodate larger ships up to Panamax size. Currently the Corps of Engineers is contracting out deepening to 50 feet (15 m), to accommodate Post-Panamax container vessels, which can pass through the Suez Canal."
Panamax: 965 ft length, 106 ft width, 40 ft depth.
Boston: 40 ft. depth
Delaware River Channel Deepening project goal is 45 feet depth for the Port of Philadelphia.
Philadelphia originally had a natural depth of around 20 feet, and was a better port than New York harbor (17 ft). But thanks to the Erie Canal, New York harbor attracted the most shipping business. And became the premier east coast port.
The Susquehanna River Basin comprises less than 1% of the land area of the continental United States, but experiences 6% of the national average flood damages.
About 1,160 of the 1,400 communities in the basin are in flood-prone areas.
Susquehanna Flood Stages: Pennsylvania
Towanda 16 ft.
Meshoppen 27 ft.
Wilkes-Barre 22 ft.
Bloomsburg 19 ft.
Danville 20 ft.
Sunbury 24 ft.
Harrisburg 17 ft.
Marietta 49 ft. <= New Seaport candidate?
New York
Unadilla 11 ft. (excavate a channel and you're boating near the Catskills and Adirondacks)
Bainbridge 13 ft.
Afton 11 ft. (excavate a channel)
Conklin 11 ft. (excavate a channel)
Binghamton 14 ft.
Vestal 18 ft.
West Br. Susquehanna Flood Stages:
Lock Haven 21 ft. (Mighty close to State College and Penn State via Blanchard Lake)
Jersey Shore 26 ft.
Williamsport 20 ft.
Milton 19 ft.
Lewisburg 18 ft.
Therefore flood control, and a modest 12 ft deep navigable channel via extensive hydraulic engineering is warranted.
A project of this scope and magnitude will trigger economic activity, starting from construction, onward for decades.
Last note:
Before petroleum's rise, there were boats and railroads. After petroleum's demise, there will be boats and electric railroads. Make plans accordingly.
Last edited by jetgraphics; 02-08-2009 at 05:46 PM..
Building dams affects the hydrology, the terrestrial and aquatic systems of the river in a negative way and it would essentially change the ecosystem of the river. I don't think that destroying a river so people can have a place to waterski is worth it.
I have to agree. Damming the river would bring negative changes to the river itself. In Alabama, I live by a lake created from damming a river. One thing I enjoy about the part of the Susquehannah I frequent is that it is free from all that noise and water traffic I have in AL. Dams are having to be removed from various rivers in the U.S. now because of the problems it creates.
I have to agree. Damming the river would bring negative changes to the river itself. In Alabama, I live by a lake created from damming a river. One thing I enjoy about the part of the Susquehannah I frequent is that it is free from all that noise and water traffic I have in AL. Dams are having to be removed from various rivers in the U.S. now because of the problems it creates.
Is the lake part of the TVA?
Can you enumerate the "Bad changes"?
Did the fish population die off?
Did the bird population die off?
Re: noise
I presume you refer to gasoline and diesel powered speed boats and other pleasure craft.
If the "peak oil" people are correct, the age of cheap and plentiful oil is over.
That means fuel will become more expensive, and less plentiful, curtailing recreational uses.
Without petroleum, your lake may become very quiet, indeed.
Before the dam, was the waterway navigable by boats other than lightweight canoes?
Navigable Waterways
National Strategy for the Marine Transportation System: A Framework for Action (http://www.cmts.gov/nationalstrategy.htm - broken link)
This is the period just before the dominance of railroad operation. The need for inexpensive transportation compelled the construction of canals and navigable waterways. Note the Pennsylvania State Canal system that linked parts of the Susquehanna river to other waterways. It's incredible that canals linked the Finger Lakes to the Susquehanna river and the Delaware river.
If you've seen the movie, "How the West Was Won", you might have wondered how the Erie Canal (Lake Erie to the Hudson River) linked the settlers to the Mississippi River. Note the canal from Cleveland to the Ohio river (Ohio and Erie Canal).
In every case where a canal or waterway was available, towns and cities prospered along the route. This is one aspect of inexpensive transportation and its impact on the economy. It was no accident that railroads followed the lead, building routes that paralleled the shores of lakes, canals and rivers.
Why take the time and effort to maximize a river's potential? Even after oil's demise, railroads will be able to move cargo faster - but not cheaper. So transportation alone cannot be enough - except when the cargo size exceeds the inherent limitations of the rail (height, length and width). If you want to think about the effects of a LOSS of water transportation, check out the Great Lakes, now that the St. Lawrence Seaway is too small for the new breed of ocean-going container ships.
What about flood control? Over the years, the Susquehanna wreaked havoc on many communities. That benefit is certainly important. The opposite of flooding - drought - is equally important. An increase in reservoir capacity will certainly be a boon in any future drought in the watershed. (Don't discount drought - even "moist" Pennsylvania suffered from a bad drought in 1908.) Fresh water is a priceless commodity, sought after by everyone.
Electrical power generation from dams is another benefit - especially since there is no contamination of the environment, nor cyclical interruption.
Increased water habitat for aquaculture is an important benefit. There are many opportunities to "farm" fish and crustaceans. Imagine creating a new industry of filter feeding mollusks to make food and clean the water at the same time.
http://www.ecsga.org/pages/BenefitsBrochure.pdf (broken link)
(A single oyster can clear 15 gallons / day.) Sustaining America's Aquatic Biodiversity - Freshwater Mussel Biodiversity and Conservation
Nearly 300 species of mussels inhabit fresh-water rivers, streams, and lakes in the United States.
Let's not forget the humble crayfish (crawdad) and freshwater shrimp and prawns.
Imagine a network of riverside aquaculture "ranches", that run water through filter feeders, wetland filters, and then to "sensitive" marine creatures like crayfish.
Recreational use is not insignificant, nor to be discounted. Pursuing happiness is an important aspect of life. Marinas, beaches, gardens, parkland all can benefit from a stable waterway.
Can you imagine the impact that a navigable Susquehanna river will have on the communities that line its banks? New opportunities for all. Economic growth. Tourism. Riverbank development without fear. Ship building and servicing. Production and trade. The list is only limited by one's imagination.
It is suicidal and genocidal to take the position that environmental preservation (status quo of a "natural state") is better than engineering an environment to maximize its life bearing capacity. Improving wild land for agriculture boosts the food production capacity, and thus the human population. Destroying agricultural land for short term profit is inexcusable. Likewise, engineering a waterway for maximum benefit is good. And short sighted destructive development is bad. (Arable land with good water is a priceless commodity - just look at the terraced rice fields in Yuanyang County made by generations of hard working farmers. Or Peruvian terraces, built in the Andes.)
Environmental Amplification / Expansion should be the goal of "Green Thinkers". Don't settle for the minimum. Aim higher. Incorporate new techniques into the dam, spillway, channel and shore development that enhances habitat. Clean up the antiquated sewer systems in the watershed. Support fish hatcheries. Increase wetland space for filtering contaminants. Downstream, the Chesapeake Bay will benefit greatly.
Ultimately, each generation is the beneficiary of the previous. Let us prepare for a bountiful future, filled with prosperity.
In further reading, there were canal links between the ERIE CANAL and the SUSQUEHANNA via CHENANGO CANAL. (Connecting Binghamton to Unadilla to Utica, and the Great Lakes)
A link between SENECA LAKE to the SUSQUEHANNA was forged by the Crooked Lake Canal, between Seneca lake and Keuka Lake, and then to the Cohocton river, and on to the Chemung river, which was a tributary of the Susquehanna. (Connecting with the cities of Corning, Elmira, and Waverly)
The Pennsylvania Canal ran 169 miles from Northumberland, PA to the NY border, near Athens.
FWIW : When the Erie Canal was completed, it was estimated that it cut transport costs by 95% between the Great Lakes and New York City.
A link between SENECA LAKE to the SUSQUEHANNA was forged by the Crooked Lake Canal, between Seneca lake and Keuka Lake, and then to the Cohocton river, and on to the Chemung river, which was a tributary of the Susquehanna. (Connecting with the cities of Corning, Elmira, and Waverly)
Where did you get this? Two clicks from your link gets to this Chapter 15: The Crooked Lake Canal with the following quotation: "this [Crooked Lake] canal was not a link in any great through system".
There was instead a connection at Elmira between the Chemung Canal and the even more short lived Junction Canal paralleling the Chemung River from Elmira to Athens. Here's a page on the Chemung Canal: A Brief History of the Chemung Canal It didn't overdose on gasoline or cheap oil - it wasn't competitive with wood burning locomotives to say nothing of coal.
I suppose that could be called nitpicking. You conveniently define away environmental concerns as "genocidal" so there's not much point in talking about anadromous fish and the like.
But it also takes a lot of water to float boats and given the height and distance over the headwaters of the Susquehanna you might not have a whole lot extra to play with in the summertime. The Chemung River at Corning is easily wadable in a normal summer. Elevation is similar to Atlanta's and we have seen some of their recent difficulties. One can supply many people with the water that it takes to float a single boat. Maybe a boondoggle canal is "genocidal."
Water also freezes. Cheap transportation isn't so cheap when you need to do something else five months of the year.
Let's see if you can define practicality away with the same ease with which you discard financial and environmental issues. Remember, it takes a lot to get the Corps of Engineers off a river and they've walked away from the Susquehanna for 200 years.
[1]Where did you get this? Two clicks from your link gets to this Chapter 15: The Crooked Lake Canal with the following quotation: "this [Crooked Lake] canal was not a link in any great through system".
There was instead a connection at Elmira between the Chemung Canal and the even more short lived Junction Canal paralleling the Chemung River from Elmira to Athens. Here's a page on the Chemung Canal: A Brief History of the Chemung Canal It didn't overdose on gasoline or cheap oil - it wasn't competitive with wood burning locomotives to say nothing of coal.
[2] I suppose that could be called nitpicking. You conveniently define away environmental concerns as "genocidal" so there's not much point in talking about anadromous fish and the like.
[3] But it also takes a lot of water to float boats and given the height and distance over the headwaters of the Susquehanna you might not have a whole lot extra to play with in the summertime. The Chemung River at Corning is easily wadable in a normal summer. Elevation is similar to Atlanta's and we have seen some of their recent difficulties. One can supply many people with the water that it takes to float a single boat. Maybe a boondoggle canal is "genocidal."
[4] Water also freezes. Cheap transportation isn't so cheap when you need to do something else five months of the year.
[5] Let's see if you can define practicality away with the same ease with which you discard financial and environmental issues. Remember, it takes a lot to get the Corps of Engineers off a river and they've walked away from the Susquehanna for 200 years.
"The new waterway was heavily used but the state never made back the cost of operation—let alone the enormous cost of construction."
"The Canal and the access it provided to larger markets—no matter how much it cost the state—created a boom economy."
It was certainly used. That it did not recover the cost was covered partly in the essay. Cheap and expedient construction contributed to expensive retrofits.
The railroads did succeed in drawing commercial business away from canals. However, I think it was unwise that canals were deliberately destroyed or left to decay. I also feel it was unwise to allow the oil cartel to destroy urban electric rail mass transit (streetcars and interurbans).
The Conowingo Dam, and to a lesser extent the Holtwood and Safe Harbor Dams further upstream, severely impacted the migratory fish species, especially American shad, that would swim up the Susquehanna River to spawn.
All three dams completed installation of fish lifts in time for the 2000 season. During the 2000 migration season, 153,000 American shad passed through the Conowingo fish lift. "However, passage rates of shad from Conowingo to Holtwood have been only 30 to 50 percent, suggesting that fish are having difficulty moving upstream in the waters of the Conowingo pool."
Point - dams on the Susquehanna already impact migratory fish. More dams will certainly impact them. But if the engineering project incorporated amelioration from the start, perhaps loss will be reduced. Remember, past designs did not take into consideration the need for environmental amplification.
Genocidal does seem to be harsh criticism of the "status quo" mode of "Green Think". My choice of terms was slanted to elicit a response. Mea culpa. But there is a reason for the hyperbole. I am assuming that population doubling every 40 years continues. In 2050, America will have 600 million people. In 2090, 1.2 billion people (approaching China's population of 1.3 B - 2007 est.).
Preserving "natural environments" at the expense of human habitat and agriculture is suicidal and genocidal. Whose great grandchildren do you wish to deny existence to?
(And don't forget the unstoppable flood of immigrants that have a higher than average reproductive rate.)
Do you think an engineered river system would be a benefit or a detriment to their future survival?
[3] A series of low head dams should store plenty of reserve water. With minimal lock depth, traffic should not drain too much water for boats making a passage. But that may be an error. Even the Panama Canal can be overwhelmed by popularity.
[4] Freezing may seasonally shut down canal transport. When I lived in Binghamton, the Susquehanna never froze over. Can't say about the Finger lakes. Do you happen to know if they freeze over every year?
[5] USACE doesn't "walk off" - their authority to act is delegated by Congress. Congress may have "walked off".
The "Financial Issue" is based on several factors - including desire and cooperation.
Consider that quaint custom of "Barn Raising". A community would donate their labor (and often materials,too) and build a structure for a family. The process did not involve begging for credit from a usurer, nor a grant from government. The beneficiaries may be expected to "pay it forward" and help in future 'Barn raisings'.
Thus community effort can be applied to useful endeavors.
A measure of a civilization's greatness is the cooperation it wields - for good or ill.
I may dream of a great work, by cooperation of many people, but that is not impractical. It may be improbable for a people ingrained to be apathetic, but not impractical. And by sharing the dream, perhaps that apathy may change to consideration, or even excitement and support.
Tis better to dream, don't you think?
More "Fun" thoughts about a Susquehanna River Authority *(TVA style) comprehensive project.
[] In a future where fossil fuels are no longer cheap nor plentiful, and alternatives aren't cheap nor plentiful, would it be practical to operate "powered" waterways?
Imagine suspended overhead power lines that barges can tap into with twin trolley poles. Cra-zee, haina? Hydropower in a closed loop! (This is not totally impractical, especially if a railroad ROW is following the shore line AND is electrified.)
[] If SRA assigns areas of high density shoreline development, would folks build right up to the water, like they do on the Grand Canal, in China? And with such proximity to the water, would merchants and entrepreneurs bring their wares right to your window? (Where do you think the idea for the flying Sampan kitchen in "The Fifth Element" came from...)
[] Another variation on the "hydropower theme" - for upstream travel, a series of winches and cables that one can clamp on to, and be hauled. (Electric mule?)
[] Imagine a migratory or temporary workforce that traveled by house boat. When seasonal workers are available, the "Fleet" is in port!
[] Entertainment by ship: Traveling theater-on-a-boat? Floating stage? Shoreline amphitheaters?
CORRECTION :
U.S.A. population doubling is not every 40 years.
1920 - 106,021,537
1970 - 203,302,031
(50 years to double)
2010 - 310,000,000 est.
2020 - 400,000,000 est.
2070 - 800,000,000 est.
2120 - 1.6 B est.
"In the 1820s, Ohio was one of the poorest states in the Union. By 1840 Ohio had grown from one of the poorest states in the Union to the third most prosperous. The growth and development spurred by the construction of the canal system is the foundation of Ohio’s economy today."
"Initially, wages were 30 cents a day plus a ration of whiskey. By September 1825, more than 2,000 men were working on building the "Big Ditch.""
"When completed in 1832, the 308 mile long canal had cost $4,244,540. This averaged just less than $15,000 per mile."
Using wages as a reference point, and converting the cost to modern prices, it represents 14,148,466.67 man-days, or 38,762.92 man-years.
Assuming a wage of $7/hr, the canal would cost the equivalent of $792,314,133.33 in 2009 money. (A bargain, eh?)
186:1 money value difference to hire labor. (186 Federal Reserve Notes for 1 dollar (gold).)
Coinage Act of 1792 defined a unit dollar as a silver coin with no less than 0.77 ounces silver, and a one ounce gold coin was equivalent to 20 unit dollars (silver).
Today's gold price: 898 FRNS / ounce.
898 FRNS / 20 dollars (U.S.)
44.9:1
Today's silver price: 12.91 FRNs / ounce.
12.91 x 0.77 dollars
9.9407:1
(roughly ten paper dollar bills will buy enough silver for 1 dollar U.S.)
Coincidentally, that's why solid copper isn't used for pennies. The copper didn't become more expensive - the paper money dropped in relative value. Unfortunately, precious metal is too scarce to be used for circulating money. There is so little of it, that for trade to operate under its limitations, there would be a deflation on the order of 3700:1 (3700 FRNs for 1 dollar) or greater.
Based on the est. world wide above ground supply of gold bullion = 5 billion ounces, and a 6 billion world population, there's less than an ounce of gold per capita.
Fort Knox has approx. 147 million ounces. Divide that by 300 million Americans and that computes to less than 1/2 ounce per capita. ($9 in lawful money)
Contrast:
Ohio & Erie Canal, 308 miles, cost : $4,244,540. 1832.
New York’s 363-mile Erie Canal opened in 1825, at a cost of $10 million.
(1.860 billion in 2009 dollar bills)
Of course, labor was far cheaper then, than now.
Based on the estimated "over 2000 men" working for at least 7 years, the actual man-year cost was only approximately 15,000. Of course, the materials represent a cost of labor to produce them, which may just account for the previous estimate of 38,762.92 man-years.
In retrospect, it is far easier and cheaper to build canals than to build dams, locks, hydropower installations, and other necessary items. But, then, the whole idea was not to build just a water transportation route, but a comprehensive economic recovery system that added value for flood control, biological diversity, food production, valuable waterfront property, water reservoirs, vacation destinations, commercial and industrial opportunities, and economic growth.
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