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Old 03-22-2009, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,710,893 times
Reputation: 4535

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kb09 View Post
Well a man had the chance to rid himself of all responsibility of a child. But let's not go into that shall we?

Yep, and she gets the final say, because it's her body. If a guy didn't want to have a kid, should've kept it in his pants, or wore a condom, or made damn sure that his partner was on birth control. The whole "I thought she was on the pill" or some other lame brain argument such as that is completely ludicrous and ridiculous.
What if she lies and says she is on the pill? What if she digs a condom out of the trash? What if she pokes holes in the condom?

Again...you are assigning all responsibility to the man. What about the woman's responsibility?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kb09 View Post
Nope. Sorry bud it doesn't work like that. You cannot lay claim over another person's body and what's in it. If someone gave me blood, they cannot come back later and say that they own me because it's in my body.

A baby may be comprised of a sperm and an egg, but it is feeding off of the woman's body. She has the absolute right to decide whether she wants to keep it or not. The man has no say in it, because it's not his body and not his choice. Period.
I'm not talking about the woman's body...I'm talking about the fetus. A man should have equal say over the fetus. Unfortunately, because the fetus is in the woman's body...it effects her more. You are right. But she has no right to make a decision all on her own when the fetus is just as much his.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kb09 View Post
Not his body, not his choice.
The fetus' body is just as much his.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kb09 View Post
After birth, the responsibility of a child becomes the burden of both parents. It doesn't just shift onto one parent (as it does in pregnancy), it is a mutual burden and should be met with mutual expenses. If a mother has to feed, clothe, raise, and nuture the baby, then the father dropping a couple stacks every month and seeing his offspring every few weeks is a drop in the bucket; and vice versa.
Why should the responsibility shift? You are saying it shouldn't shift but you ARE saying it should shift at birth. And you are talking about how the men should have RESPONSIBILITY and BURDENS but I never saw the word RIGHTS in there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kb09 View Post
Dude, get over yourself and get off your high horse. You know damn well that it is the parent that has custody of the child (the one who is raising it) that pays most of the expenses for it. They have to provide shelter, food, clothing, for the baby and themselves. God forbid if the parent that has custody has medical problems (either them or the child) added to the expenses. Baby food is not cheap, diapers are not cheap, a baby in general is not cheap. The parent that does not have custody of the child is usually the one getting the better end of the stick (financially) because they don't have to support another human being. A couple of hundred bucks every few weeks is figuratively and realistically a drop in the bucket compared to the expenses the custodial parent has to pay.
Of course I understand that but it is an injustice and it is sexism to make him pay a PENNY. The amount is irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kb09 View Post
Okay, so since we are going to be equal and fair share for all, then I'm not opposed to having the man die also if the woman dies from child birth or complications during the pregnancy. Fair share for all right? Rigghhht.
No. Because I am not in to the whole idea of intentional killings.

Last edited by afoigrokerkok; 03-22-2009 at 10:37 AM..
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Old 03-22-2009, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Pensacola, Fl
656 posts, read 948,085 times
Reputation: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
What if she lies and says she is on the pill? What if she digs a condom out of the trash? What if she pokes holes in the condom?
Going off the deep in I see? If he even suspects her of lying or foul play, then maybe he shouldn't have sex with her huh? If I was a guy and I had an inkling that a chick was trying to get pregnant and use underhanded means, then I'd zip it back up and leave.

The thing with the condom? Completely impossible. Sperm cannot survive longer than a few minutes outside of the body (either has to be in the testes or in the vagina). And even if she was able to get sperm off a condom within the time limits, the sperm would be so damaged from the outside that the possibility of pregnancy from it is near zero.

For the poking holes in the condom thing there's only one solution: BYOC.
Bring your own condoms.

Why would you even consider having sex with a woman that would be willing to go through such underhanded and sneaky methods just to get pregnant. I'm positively sure that she would have shown her underhanded methods outside of the bedroom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
Again...you are assigning all responsibility to the man. What about the woman's responsibility?
The woman is just as much responsible for a pregnancy as the man. And they both have chances to stop an unwanted pregnancy. It's just the woman has the final say so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
I'm not talking about the woman's body...I'm talking about the fetus.
Which is in the woman's body.

Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
A man should have equal say over the fetus.
He can have equal say over the fetus when the day comes that he can carry the said fetus to term; until then not his body, not his choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
Unfortunately, because the fetus is in the woman's body...it effects her more. You are right. But she has no right to make a decision all on her own when the fetus is just as much his.
She has just as much, if not more right to decide what happens to the fetus because it is a parasite. She is the host and as the host she can decide to keep being a host or call it quits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
The fetus' body is just as much his.
And where is the fetus located?

Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
Why should the responsibility shift? And you are talking about how the men should have RESPONSIBILITY and BURDENS but I never saw the word RIGHTS in there.
Dude, did you even read my post?

I said both parents have the burden of taking care of the child. I said the parent with the baby has more of a responsibility and burden for the child. And did you miss the part where I said vice versa? Meaning it can happen the other way around?

Okay, the man has a right to take care of his baby (whether he is the custodial parent or not). Happy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
Of course I understand that but it is an injustice and it is sexism to make him pay a PENNY. The amount is irrelevant.
No it's neither; it's called supporting your child. Notice in that last part I left out the words man and woman and just stuck to parents. Because it does not matter the sex, if you are not living with your child and paying the basic expenses to support said child, you will have to support that child financially, regardless of sex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
No. Because I am not in to the whole idea of intentional killings.
Then there is no fair share. I could argue that it is intentionally killing a mother by not letting her have a third trimester abortion and making her go through with the pregnancy. So under that notion, the man should die also; after all, we are only trying to be fair.
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Old 03-22-2009, 10:49 AM
 
9,221 posts, read 8,654,184 times
Reputation: 14140
Default Abortion. . .

We all have our opinions, and I respect others.

My opinion of Abortion: it is murder. I can find no words or excuses that will make it anything but.
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Old 03-22-2009, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,710,893 times
Reputation: 4535
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie45 View Post
We all have our opinions, and I respect others.

My opinion of Abortion: it is murder. I can find no words or excuses that will make it anything but.
I agree 100% once the fetus can feel pain OR if fetuses that age have EVER survived outside the womb. However, some posters on here seem to take a FAR more liberal view and say that a mother should be allowed to simply kill a "parasite" regardless of anything because it's so much HER choice. Ridiculous, cruel, cold, and heartless...
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Old 03-22-2009, 11:09 AM
 
Location: Pensacola, Fl
656 posts, read 948,085 times
Reputation: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
I agree 100% once the fetus can feel pain OR if fetuses that age have EVER survived outside the womb. However, some posters on here seem to take a FAR more liberal view and say that a mother should be allowed to simply kill a "parasite" regardless of anything because it's so much HER choice. Ridiculous, cruel, cold, and heartless...

What is ridiculous is telling a woman that her body is not truly her own, that she has no say so on whether she will decide to keep a baby or not.

What is cruel, cold, and heartless, is condeming a woman for a decision that she made with the best of abilities and assuming that she made such a decision for selfish and immature reasons. It is cruel, cold, and heartless, to require a woman to carry a baby to term that will kill her or leave the baby with serious health and mental problems (you are not allowed to abort a baby in the third trimester even if the baby will be born with holes in the brain, hole in the heart, severe physical problems). Which is more cruel, letting a baby be born at the demise of the mother (and sometimes the child) so it can rest easier on your conscience? Isn't that equally just as cruel? As cold? As heartless?

I don't agree with abortions per se, but I agree with allowing the woman the right to choose, to decide what's in the best interest for her and that fetus (if she is incapable of being a mother, of being able to financially provide for the said fetus).
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Old 03-22-2009, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Utah
74 posts, read 112,234 times
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A good friend of mine got pregnant probably about 2 years ago when she was 17(ish) She was about 2 months along before she actually took a pregnancy test. She seemed very surprised, and of course was scared to death about the fact that she was going to have a baby. Her family is LDS, and she said there is no way I can tell my parents, they will kill me!! She then started looking up places to get an abortion (out of state, because where I live, if not 18, you had to have a parent with you) so she found a place in Vegas and set up an appointment. I told her this isnt something little, you need to think about it for more than a day before you just go and get rid of it and act like that was never a part of your life. What I said to her pretty much just went in one ear and out the other, so the following week her and a friend were on their way to Vegas to get rid of this "problem". The main reason for me telling this story is to ask parents, what would your reaction be to your 17 year old telling you that she was pregnant?
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Old 03-22-2009, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,710,893 times
Reputation: 4535
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMMegan View Post
A good friend of mine got pregnant probably about 2 years ago when she was 17(ish) She was about 2 months along before she actually took a pregnancy test. She seemed very surprised, and of course was scared to death about the fact that she was going to have a baby. Her family is LDS, and she said there is no way I can tell my parents, they will kill me!! She then started looking up places to get an abortion (out of state, because where I live, if not 18, you had to have a parent with you) so she found a place in Vegas and set up an appointment. I told her this isnt something little, you need to think about it for more than a day before you just go and get rid of it and act like that was never a part of your life. What I said to her pretty much just went in one ear and out the other, so the following week her and a friend were on their way to Vegas to get rid of this "problem". The main reason for me telling this story is to ask parents, what would your reaction be to your 17 year old telling you that she was pregnant?
I'd be upset. At the same time, I certainly wouldn't suggest abortion. Given that she is 17 and with abortion being legally available, I WOULD make it her choice and sign a consent form. I would first, however, make sure that she knew of all her choices.

The best option would be adoption. With her being 17, if she wanted to raise the child herself, I would offer help for a few years and work on transitioning her to be an independent mother by her early 20's.

I would certainly hope that my daughter would not get pregnant at the age of 17 or be sexually active at all at the age of 17.
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Old 03-22-2009, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,710,893 times
Reputation: 4535
Quote:
Originally Posted by kb09 View Post
What is ridiculous is telling a woman that her body is not truly her own, that she has no say so on whether she will decide to keep a baby or not.

What is cruel, cold, and heartless, is condeming a woman for a decision that she made with the best of abilities and assuming that she made such a decision for selfish and immature reasons. It is cruel, cold, and heartless, to require a woman to carry a baby to term that will kill her or leave the baby with serious health and mental problems (you are not allowed to abort a baby in the third trimester even if the baby will be born with holes in the brain, hole in the heart, severe physical problems). Which is more cruel, letting a baby be born at the demise of the mother (and sometimes the child) so it can rest easier on your conscience? Isn't that equally just as cruel? As cold? As heartless?

I don't agree with abortions per se, but I agree with allowing the woman the right to choose, to decide what's in the best interest for her and that fetus (if she is incapable of being a mother, of being able to financially provide for the said fetus).
I specifically said that if the child had severe abnormalities or the mother's life was at risk, I am fine with it even in the third trimester.

My problem is with abortions towards the end of the second trimester and during the third trimester FOR THE PURPOSE OF releasing yourself from responsibility. If it is about not being able to financially provide, at that point, she's gotten far enough along that it's a very selfish reason. Adoption IS an option.
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Old 03-22-2009, 11:46 AM
 
422 posts, read 553,370 times
Reputation: 487
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
I would certainly hope that my daughter would not get pregnant at the age of 17 or be sexually active at all at the age of 17.
Thats IMPOSSIBLE you know. To suggest that young people have any control over their own bodies even after being taught properly is ridiculous. Don't you know that they are like animals and can't possibly walk a moral path? What planet are you living on? Give her some pills so she won't get pregnant, then give her some more pills if she does, If that pill was taken too late there is another one she can take after that. If THAT doesn't work the abortionist can give her a pill to try and make the whole murder fuzzy. Then her shrink can give her some different pills later to deal with her "long history of depression of unknown origin". (If I read that on one more womans chart I'll scream ) See simple. Why waste hours of communicating with your kids and training them up when you can just "fix" whatever situation comes along ? Duh. Responsible parents are SOOOOO naive'.
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Old 03-22-2009, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,710,893 times
Reputation: 4535
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple_Princess View Post
Thats IMPOSSIBLE you know. To suggest that young people have any control over their own bodies even after being taught properly is ridiculous. Don't you know that they are like animals and can't possibly walk a moral path? What planet are you living on? Give her some pills so she won't get pregnant, then give her some more pills if she does, If that pill was taken too late there is another one she can take after that. If THAT doesn't work the abortionist can give her a pill to try and make the whole murder fuzzy. Then her shrink can give her some different pills later to deal with her "long history of depression of unknown origin". (If I read that on one more womans chart I'll scream ) See simple. Why waste hours of communicating with your kids and training them up when you can just "fix" whatever situation comes along ? Duh. Responsible parents are SOOOOO naive'.
God I want to rep you SOOOO bad but unfortunately these stupid rules do not allow reps to be given when they are deserved.
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