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Old 03-27-2009, 08:02 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,338,810 times
Reputation: 4521

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykay View Post
Well, this brings us back to square one if you want to look at it that way. Abortion infringes on the baby's right to life.
The posters on this thread will tell you that the baby is a parasite (I understand this is biologically correct) and that, as a fetus, he or she is simply a part of his or her mother's body and has no rights.

My point is that the mother, 99.99999% of the time, chose to engage in an action knowing that a child could result.
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Old 03-27-2009, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Texas
8,668 posts, read 19,528,502 times
Reputation: 21270
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
The posters on this thread will tell you that the baby is a parasite (I understand this is biologically correct) and that, as a fetus, he or she is simply a part of his or her mother's body and has no rights.

My point is that the mother, 99.99999% of the time, chose to engage in an action knowing that a child could result.
Well, this is the heart of the pro-life/pro-choice debate. When does life begin? And I agree with you, the so-called "parasite" didn't just attach itself uninvited so to speak.
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Old 03-27-2009, 08:19 AM
 
9,912 posts, read 11,924,158 times
Reputation: 7247
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
The posters on this thread will tell you that the baby is a parasite (I understand this is biologically correct) and that, as a fetus, he or she is simply a part of his or her mother's body and has no rights.

My point is that the mother, 99.99999% of the time, chose to engage in an action knowing that a child could result.
As did the father.

And I dispute the 99.99999999% statistic. Where did you pull that from?
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Old 03-27-2009, 08:22 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,338,810 times
Reputation: 4521
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshadow View Post
As did the father.

And I dispute the 99.99999999% statistic. Where did you pull that from?
Of course. I think I said earlier on this thread that, if a man absolutely does not want a child, he can get a vasectomy.

I assign equal responsibility to both the man and the woman. I don't think either one should have the ability, in most cases, to simply alleviate themselves from the responsibility. I have zero problem with abortions in cases where the mother's life is at risk. Any other situation is where it becomes questionable for me.

And do you really think that more than a very, very, very small number of pregnancies are the result of rape?
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Old 03-27-2009, 08:37 AM
 
9,912 posts, read 11,924,158 times
Reputation: 7247
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
Of course. I think I said earlier on this thread that, if a man absolutely does not want a child, he can get a vasectomy.

I assign equal responsibility to both the man and the woman. I don't think either one should have the ability, in most cases, to simply alleviate themselves from the responsibility. I have zero problem with abortions in cases where the mother's life is at risk. Any other situation is where it becomes questionable for me.

And do you really think that more than a very, very, very small number of pregnancies are the result of rape?
Fine. I'm aware of your thoughts and opinions on the matter. I don't share most of them. So be it.

BUT no birth control is 100% affective just for starters so we're not just talking about a very, very, very small number of pregnancies that are the result of rape.
It's not uncommon EVEN NOW for women not to be told by their health care provider that some medications such as antibiotics can null and void the pill. Contraception fails. It fails all the time even when correctly used. Those people chose to engage in the action fully believing they were covered, so I'm thinking if we count them and the rape victims we're getting further and further away from 99.99999999% wouldn't you say?

EVERY woman that ends up at a clinic having an abortion is there because of a man being involved in the process BUT we can't even get people to take accurate statistics of repeat offenders. Nobody is chasing the man down, nobody is advocating naming and shaming and vilifying the man. NOBODY seems to think they bear any responsibility here at all.

Please don't tell me if a man absolutely doesn't want a child he "can" get a vasectomy because we all know that's not what happens. MOST of the pregnancies that result in abortion the man couldn't even get it together to wear a rubber, I hardly think with that level of ineptitude he's going to be subjecting himself to surgery, do you?
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Old 03-27-2009, 08:39 AM
 
Location: Columbus, OH
857 posts, read 1,201,113 times
Reputation: 552
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
Of course. I think I said earlier on this thread that, if a man absolutely does not want a child, he can get a vasectomy.

I assign equal responsibility to both the man and the woman. I don't think either one should have the ability, in most cases, to simply alleviate themselves from the responsibility. I have zero problem with abortions in cases where the mother's life is at risk. Any other situation is where it becomes questionable for me.

And do you really think that more than a very, very, very small number of pregnancies are the result of rape?
I don't believe for a second that anybody gets an abortion and takes it lightly, so I don't like that we talk about it like its just a quick trip to the doctor to alleviate some burden. Its a life altering experience, for better or worse and it is never taken lightly. So I think we should stop arguing like people use it as a form of contraceptive, that is unfair.

For me is comes down to two rights, the woman's right to do as she pleases with her own body, and her right to the pursuit of happiness. An unwanted child essentially violates both of these rights. The counter argument is we violate the rights of the child, well we just have to establish when the fertilized egg becomes another human being. And when that point is reached it is no longer legal to have an abortion.
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Old 03-27-2009, 08:42 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,338,810 times
Reputation: 4521
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshadow View Post
Fine. I'm aware of your thoughts and opinions on the matter. I don't share most of them. So be it.

BUT no birth control is 100% affective just for starters so we're not just talking about a very, very, very small number of pregnancies that are the result of rape.
It's not uncommon EVEN NOW for women not to be told by their health care provider that some medications such as antibiotics can null and void the pill. Contraception fails. It fails all the time even when correctly used. Those people chose to engage in the action fully believing they were covered, so I'm thinking if we count them and the rape victims we're getting further and further away from 99.99999999% wouldn't you say?

EVERY woman that ends up at a clinic having an abortion is there because of a man being involved in the process BUT we can't even get people to take accurate statistics of repeat offenders. Nobody is chasing the man down, nobody is advocating naming and shaming and vilifying the man. NOBODY seems to think they bear any responsibility here at all.

Please don't tell me if a man absolutely doesn't want a child he "can" get a vasectomy because we all know that's not what happens. MOST of the pregnancies that result in abortion the man couldn't even get it together to wear a rubber, I hardly think with that level of ineptitude he's going to be subjecting himself to surgery, do you?
I meant that, if you do not want a child at all, you can choose to not have sex. I know that's not what people want to do. But it is an option for both men and women. No birth control may be 100%, but a tubal litigation or vasectomy is to the best of my knowledge.
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,338,810 times
Reputation: 4521
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykay View Post
Well, this is the heart of the pro-life/pro-choice debate. When does life begin? And I agree with you, the so-called "parasite" didn't just attach itself uninvited so to speak.
I should also add that several posters on this thread think abortion should be allowed even once the fetus is viable and/or once it has been proven that the fetus CAN feel pain, simply because they still view it as a part of the mother's body. I cannot and will not ever be able to even view this as a legitimate argument once the fetus is at that point in its growth.
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:30 AM
 
Location: Pensacola, Fl
656 posts, read 929,328 times
Reputation: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
The posters on this thread will tell you that the baby is a parasite (I understand this is biologically correct) and that, as a fetus, he or she is simply a part of his or her mother's body and has no rights.
The fetus may have rights, but the rights of the mother overrule that of the fetus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
My point is that the mother, 99.99999% of the time, chose to engage in an action knowing that a child could result.
So what do you suggest doing to keep the 99.99999% of women from engaging in sex? Abstinence? We've seen how well that has worked in the recent years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
I meant that, if you do not want a child at all, you can choose to not have sex. I know that's not what people want to do. But it is an option for both men and women. No birth control may be 100%, but a tubal litigation or vasectomy is to the best of my knowledge.
There have also been cases where women have gotten pregnant even when someone had a tubal litigation or vasectomy.

Pregnancy after Tubal Ligation

Vasectomy Failure > The Reasons Behind a Vasectomy Failure (http://www.vasectomy-faq.com/The-Reasons-Behind-a-Vasectomy-Failure.php - broken link)

Although extremely rare, it is still a possibility (more so if a women get's her tubes tied).

What to do about these people that took the necessary precautions to avoid pregnancy? Are they just damned to have a baby even if they don't want it?
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Texas
8,668 posts, read 19,528,502 times
Reputation: 21270
Quote:
Originally Posted by kb09 View Post

What to do about these people that took the necessary precautions to avoid pregnancy? Are they just damned to have a baby even if they don't want it?

A lot of things happen in life that we don't plan for and which we don't like, but often we do have to shoulder the responsibility once things have occurred. Unplanned and/or unwanted pregnancy IMO has to fall in this category. And truly, many, many people have given birth to babies they didn't initially want but once the baby is born, they don't know how they lived without them. I'm not saying that's true in every case, but it is in a good many unwanted pregnancies. And again, if someone doesn't want to raise a child, the possiblity of arranging for an adoption also exists. (My husband and I adopted an infant boy who was born to two teen-agers who clearly were too young and unprepared to raise a child.)
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